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Norma jean


Guest Nikola Tesla

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Christianity's basic message (on a personal, if not an organisational one), is of peace and love. Thou shalt not kill. Love thy brother. Yada yada yada. I don't really see how that clashes with my belief in hardcore, of community and unity. I accept that many evils are done in the name of "God", but I think a lot of people get so tied up in that, they forget the basic "good" message it preaches.

I also fucking hate the holier-than-thou (so to speak!) attitude many in the Hardcore community have to outsiders or anyone who doesn't conform to their rules. "You can't be hardcore, cos you believe in God" seems a ridiculous statement to me.....

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Guest allsystemsfail
Christianity's basic message (on a personal' date=' if not an organisational one), is of peace and love. Thou shalt not kill. Love thy brother. Yada yada yada. I don't really see how that clashes with my belief in hardcore, of community and unity. I accept that many evils are done in the name of "God", but I think a lot of people get so tied up in that, they forget the basic "good" message it preaches.

I also fucking hate the holier-than-thou (so to speak!) attitude many in the Hardcore community have to outsiders or anyone who doesn't conform to their rules. "You can't be hardcore, cos you believe in God" seems a ridiculous statement to me.....[/quote']

It is not ridiculous. Leftist/anti-authoritarian politics are central to the punk/hardcore community. Christianity conflicts with this.

Good message? It demands obedience to a higher authority does it not? Its message is control, and has been used to subjugate the masses.

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Guest allsystemsfail
im sorry but i wish religious standpoint would just be leftout of music. can we not just concentrate on fact that if you like brutal hardcore norma jean are the shiz-nay

I'm sorry, but if we're gonna talk about a hardcore act whose beliefs run contrary to hardcore's basic tenet, then it is indeed important to consider.

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Guest highroller

the thing is that most of the bands under the hxc label nowadays arent really concerning themselves with the whole ethics of it and what to sing about etc etc...

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Guest allsystemsfail
so your basically sayin because they are christians they ahve no right to claim to be a hardcore band? eh ok the chief

Christianity has no place in hardcore.

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Guest allsystemsfail
the thing is that most of the bands under the hxc label nowadays arent really concerning themselves with the whole ethics of it and what to sing about etc etc...

No? I'm sorry, but I beg to differ.

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Guest allsystemsfail
exactly these guys wanna be in hardcore bands because they saw their heros such as soia etc rockin like mofos and wanna follow in their footsteps. nothing wrong with that at all

Heroes? The punk/hardcore community has none. To have heroes would rather contradict the whole ethos of the scene would it not?

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hmm, i haven't made my mind up on this. im quite partial to the band Ackercocke who are satanists although I'm not a satanist myself. I don't like any Christian hardcore bands (unless comeback kid and the deal are christian...i know their label is christian) and so I can't say if I'd let that get in the way. I suppose as long as they don't preach christianity then i dont have a problem with it

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Christianity has no place in hardcore.

I disagree. Hardcore is about including everyone and not judging people on their creed, colour, race or beliefs.

The moment you start excluding people on those prinicples is the moment you become a extremist arsehole and there's nothing hardcore about that.

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I disagree. Hardcore is about including everyone and not judging people on their creed' date=' colour, race or beliefs.

The moment you start excluding people on those prinicples is the moment you become a extremist arsehole and there's nothing hardcore about that.[/quote']

:kiss: Spot On

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Guest allsystemsfail
I disagree. Hardcore is about including everyone and not judging people on their creed' date=' colour, race or beliefs.

The moment you start excluding people on those prinicples is the moment you become a extremist arsehole and there's nothing hardcore about that.[/quote']

Inclusiveness? Yes, I agree with you entirely. However, a belief in christianity contradicts this view. The bible is riddled with passages decrying homosexuality. It is extremely sexist, believing a woman of lesser worth than a man - that she should be subject to his wishes.

You know, I'm astounded. The view I've expressed here is commonplace in the punk/hardcore community.

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Guest allsystemsfail

If folks are interested, there was a long long discussion about this very matter in the pages of HeartattaCk a few years back. Check it out if you can.

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Guest Nikola Tesla

I normaly don't listen to so called christian hardcore bands, as i feel their message is normaly quite diluted and just somthing that is very much wrong to me. Norma Jean religious beliefs on the other hand, would be impossible to spot on record as their lyrics and song meanings/titles have little referance to their religion.

I can understand that technicly the whole idea of a christian HxC band is wrong, but this band are an exception bunch of musicians whos beliefs dont heavyily enter the music.

Also if your going to decry christian HxC theres plenty of bigger contradictions musicaly than that. What about christain death and black metal? Both genres that openly denounce christianity, yet some how there has been groups of christians who make it.

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Guest highroller

look...can we not just realise that most of the bands we all talk about being "hxc" are only called "hxc" because musically its similar...thats it. no message, no ethics...just music.

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sounds fair. Their's so many views in hardcore than contradict each other anyway and I don't think that just because someone is Christian, they are evil. I have friends who are Christian...perhaps if these bands prove themselves to be homophobic, sexist, racist etc then it's a cause for concern. You don't have to agree with every band you hear. I listen to a lot of sxe bands, doesn't mean I am and I don't feel hypocritical listening to this.

I am, in no way pro-Christianity. I don't think it's just christianity that is a concern in hardcore. Just look at the Leeds punk scene, their so politically correct it's frightening!

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I disagree. Hardcore is about including everyone and not judging people on their creed' date=' colour, race or beliefs.

The moment you start excluding people on those prinicples is the moment you become a extremist arsehole and there's nothing hardcore about that.[/quote']

Ex-fuckin-cactly.

The bible is riddled with hatred if you choose to interpret it that way - most of myC hristian friends are kind, tolerant and accepting. Fuck you and your prejudice.

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Guest allsystemsfail
Ex-fuckin-cactly.

The bible is riddled with hatred if you choose to interpret it that way - most of myC hristian friends are kind' date=' tolerant and accepting. Fuck you and your prejudice.[/quote']

It is not how I've interpreted these passages, but fact.

And my supposed prejudice? Yes, I despise christianity - as a belief whose message has subjugated millions.

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Guest allsystemsfail

medichi,

Yes, I edited my post. I lost my temper, and for that I apologize. You wanna be abusive, then fine, but I ain't gonna respond with like. At least, I try not to.

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Apologies. I'm not gonna edit my post, mind. In my opinion, the black and white of it is: I am able to accept that religion has some positive values on a personal and societal level - the basis of the religion is based on love and acceptance, and by and large, those that I know practicing within the faith have nothing but acceptance, kindness and tolerance towards those of differing faiths, colours and creeds - not something that I feel clashes with the hardcore ethos. Yes, I agree that the Christian establishment is responsible for MANY ills, but I believe that is caused more by people in an organisational manner, rather than the essential beliefs. Religion - OK on small scale. Organised religion: Licks balls.

Your statements excluding christians (with a small "c") from a genre of music that (In my opinion) is about community and acceptance (like Jim says), clashes with my belief of Hardcore as a power for good, removing barriers and buliding bridges in an equal world. Naive and idealist, perhaps (and judging by your previous posts, in this and other threads, you too are an idealist) but there are too many elitist assholes policing the "scene", and your post simply felt like another one of those. Apologies for the manner in which it was said, but hey.....

Anh Highroller - the loss of morals and ethos in the hardcore scene, is not something to encourage....

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Guest allsystemsfail
Apologies. I'm not gonna edit my post' date=' mind. In my opinion, the black and white of it is: I am able to accept that religion has some positive values on a personal and societal level - the basis of the religion is based on love and acceptance, and by and large, those that I know practicing within the faith have nothing but acceptance, kindness and tolerance towards those of differing faiths, colours and creeds - not something that I feel clashes with the hardcore ethos. Yes, I agree that the Christian establishment is responsible for MANY ills, but I believe that is caused more by people in an organisational manner, rather than the essential beliefs. Religion - OK on small scale. Organised religion: Licks balls.

Your statements excluding christians (with a small "c") from a genre of music that (In my opinion) is about community and acceptance (like Jim says), clashes with my belief of Hardcore as a power for good, removing barriers and buliding bridges in an equal world. Naive and idealist, perhaps (and judging by your previous posts, in this and other threads, you too are an idealist) but there are too many elitist assholes policing the "scene", and your post simply felt like another one of those. Apologies for the manner in which it was said, but hey.....

Anh Highroller - the loss of morals and ethos in the hardcore scene, is not something to encourage....[/quote']

I've considered your points, and while we're gonna have to disagree, I respect your view.

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