innovation in aberdeen

[framheim]

i dont think we do' date=' its very narrow

we dont have any stoner rock [/quote']

http://www.aberdeen-music.com/forums/showthread.php?t=14622

[Sky]

Aberdeen is a pretty diverse more rockwise in my opinion. [ My emphasis. ] Much better than a lot of the scenes I have any experience of. Perhaps more electronica and hip hop oriented stuff would be lovely but I'm never sure if there's that much scope for it live in the 'deen. Watch this space though

I think that one statement from Psydoll covers the real problem with Aberdeen's music "scene" perfectlyit's diverse in a rock sense' date=' but nothing else. There are very few electronic practioners, other than a couple of bedroom artists, and I don't even think there is one hip-hop/trip-hop/house/garage act in Aberdeen. (I'm placing Starfall firmly in the "rock" categorythe genre debate can never be truly solved, but I'd classify them industrial-rock and be done with it; of course, I am aware of their use of drum machines and synthesisers, but these are, in my opinion, merely treated as backing tracks to the guitar riffs that construct the main body of the song.)

No, I don't think there are many interesting groups in Aberdeen. Going by what I've heard so far, (certainly the bands that plug themselves on here) a lot of it seems to be just rock derived drivel with absolutely nothing new to offer.

Last time I checked, music was an artform, and is meant to be about creating, not carbon copying.

In art terms, Aberdeen is more like that shitty poster shop on union street that sells prints of all the cliched tat, than an art gallery.

I think that Stripey fires pretty true with this remarkmost of the bands in Aberdeen are rock-derived, and it's not the rock-part that bothers me, but the derivation involved. I can't, from a cold start, name a single Aberdeen act that's anything other than very obviously influenced by one band or a group of bands/genre. I think that this is rather sad.

Daveofficer mentioned that he felt it was very difficult to innovate with the standard rock palette, and I half agree, half disagree with him. It is very hard to innovate with these tools, unless you have the talent and vision to look beyond your verse-chorus-verse and catchy riff and start thinking in terms other than those. Then, regardless of your limited palette, you can still innovate. As Autechre said in an interview with The Wire some time ago, if everyone in the world used only three instruments creatively, they'd learn these instruments properly, get a feel for them, and still be able to innovate, despite the commonality of said instruments.

Of course it's very very difficult to be innovative' date=' but there's no excuse for being bland either, like the rock bands in Aberdeen that my comment was aimed at. There's a certain air of smugness about the part of the scene which I've seen so far, and I think all this patting-yourself-on-the-back because you do a few gigs in drakes and some of your mates turn up and applaud, is unhealthy. It's as if they don't think of themselves outside the context of Aberdeen.

Having seen the naive and simplistic musical tastes that a lot of people round here have, I suppose it's no surprise that there isn't a lot of genuinely inspiring stuff going on. When people have grown up believing in the MTV TOTP NME musical paradigm, maybe it's to be expected that they only aspire to do more of the same, just to be another cog in that machine, because it's all they know.[/quote']

Again, I concur with Stripey here. There is too much derivation, and this is fuelled by the incestuous nature of the Aberdeen "scene"; in certain circles, everyone has a good friend, or even partner, in a band and they're blindly defensive of them, regardless of any musical merit they may or may not haveit's the knee-jerk, "fuck you for slating my boyfriend/best -friend/brother's band!" reaction that really gets to me. Part of this is agea lot of the people involved are very youngbut part of it is a symptom of a worryingly molly-coddled person, who has no facility to cope with criticism, so merely starts swinging. What people fail to understand is that criticism can take many forms: if I mention that I felt that the band was playing slightly out of time, or the lead guitar was tuned wrong, or that I felt such-and-such a song ended poorly because of [insert reason]then I would consider it constructive, and thus the person who reacts poorly to it is in the wrong; if, however, I merely said, "Your band is shit; your lead singer's a cunt," then the reaction would be perhaps justified.

I feel that Moshulu is as big a problem as the NME/Kerrang!/MTV2 axis that influences tastes throughout Aberdeen. Moshulu is good in some ways, in that it allows you to meet with others with similar musical tastes and thus, hopefully, people you will get one with, but it also has a very large down-side: it tribalises the "alt"-kids in much the same way that all the "lower" people are tribalised. The vast majority don't come out of Moshulu with an open-mind and willingness to accept others as they are; they come out with a fixed view-point of cool and everything that fails to conform to that is instantly uncool and wrong. Instead of bucking the status quo, Moshulu and the like merely create a superficially different, but fundamentally similar, one.

Personally i don't agree that people should attempt to be innovative just for the sake of it. People pick up guitars' date=' basses, drum sticks etc because they want to play music that they enjoy listening to. If people enjoy playing what stripey describes as bland mtv rock then what's the problem with that. I don't think the fact that there aren't as many innovative local acts reflects badly on the scene i think if anything its basically because there isn't a market for it. What there is a market for is the type of stuff that people are playing. If there really were loads of people crying out for cutting edge stuff then they'd get off their arses and do it themselves wouldn't they? The fact that this isn't happening shows that there really aren't that many people wanting to listen to that kind of stuff. The kind of bands that exist reflects the music that the majority want to listen to, basically because its the people that go to gigs/buy music that create the bands.[/quote']

I agree on some points in the above, and disagree in others. I don't agree that you should innovate purely for the sake of innovationthat's like wearing a scarf purely for the sake of wearing a scarf.

I disagree that this needn't reflect badly on the "scene"I think it most certainly does. The health of a society is measured by the diversity of expression of its individuals. If these individuals are unable or unwilling to express themselves in interesting ways, does this not say something worrying about society at present? To me it doeswhen a society loses the will to innovate, it loses the will to adapt, and with it, eventually, the will to survive.

I also disagree that there isn't a market for it: I know many people who don't bother going to gigs because they don't feel that the band are doing anything that they couldn't sit at home and see on MTV2 or Q or whatever. I think this is also partly to do with the poverty of talent that affects many bands within Aberdeenmost seem to lack any kind of stage prescence, many seem to lack the ability to write a good song and thus lack the credentials necessary to pull in crowds. Personally, for all my cries of, "innovation! innovation! innovation!" I would go to see a band that didn't really care about innovating if they were good at what they did. The sad truth is that most bands just aren't even very good at Xeroxing existing bands.

As for the failure of those who desire innovative music failing to make it themselves, do you not feel that this is a slightly foolish statement? The desire for innovative music is not, by any means, confined to musicians, just as the desire for innovative design is not confined to designers. I, for one, cannot play a note on any instrument, and will probably never have the ability to do so, and yet I still have a huge appetite for innovative music.

yea that's more what i meant as well' date=' they don't sound straight like another band but you can get bits of other bands in their sound, i'd certainly add the flaming lips to that list as well. i think they're great though, and they have got their own sound but the point i was trying to make is that [b']it's nigh on impossible to be totally original these days. EVERYTHING has already been done. [ My emphasis. ]

This point is largely true, but I feel that the critical phrase in that statement is "nigh on"I think that innovation is still possible, but it will be at an increasingly subtle level. It's somewhat akin to TV: the step from black and white to colour was massive; the step from analogue to digital much smaller in comparison, from the listeners point of view. It will be largely the same with musicthe innovative leaps will become ever shorter, but will still be there, just in a more subtle form. I don't think that this is the disaster it may seem, however, as those interested in innovative music will largely be discerning enough to notice the differencesin much the same way that a connosieur can tell the difference between two subtly different vintages of the same wine.

I think the real reason we don't see much innovation in music is that we are really spoiled for choice nowadays. It's a bit like people being crap at maths because we have calculcators or why people don't remember phone numbers' date=' because they have a mobile phone. It's not that the technology inhibits creativity, more that option anxiety kicks in. We stick with what makes us comfortable, and there really isn't anything wrong with that. I guess it's complacency I have more of a problem with. And also self-praise where little is due.

As far as Portishead are concerned, from the music I have heard from them, they managed to combine innovation with palatability. Which is no mean feat.[/quote']

I think that this argument is poorly constructed: I think it's very hard to argue that being spoiled for choice would lead to the very conservative musical climate in which we live. Instead, I think that it would breed the oppositeextreme boredom with familiar styles and sounds and a very short attention-span when it came to any innovations. The way I see it, this has not come to pass: most are content to listen to bands they are familiar with, and bands of the same style, than hunt down innovative or different material.

The above symptom comes from both the fundamentally conservative impulses that rule most people and the fact that they are virtually spoon-fed music similar to that which is hawked in Aberdeen.

As for my take on Aberdeen, very few bands interest me. I still possess some kind of perverse fascination with MMW (one which isn't particularly musical), and a strong desire to see AKA The Fox play, as well as an interest in Starfall which I fear is purely one of novelty. Other than these examples, and possibly a few I have forgotten about for the time being, I have no interest in the music scene. I've largely heard/seen most of what is on offer before, and thus have no particular drive to go and see any bands play; a situation compounded by the fact that nearly every band I have seen have turned out to be, at best, mediocre and at worst atrocious.

[Guest Ibid]

Not really.

Not all bands have a good knowledge of recording techniques... not all bands can afford the equipment/studio time... thus can only really do their thing live.

I think live performance is the true test of skill... in recordings you can always re-do everything and anything' date=' you don't have to have presence or the abilility to play under pressure.

Live bands always get far more respect from me.[/quote']

I'm with Sharon here. I've booked bands on the strength of a demo only to find that they're woeful live. It's too easy to overdub, re-record and make multilayered harmony parts and widely large guitars that you can't reproduce live.

Live is where the mustard gets cut. If you can't do it live then you can't do it. That's not to say that pure studio artists are irrelevant, just my opinion.

I also think if you're a musician then you should be able to do at least something live....if you can't.....?

[Guest Stripey]

I'm with Sharon here. I've booked bands on the strength of a demo only to find that they're woeful live. It's too easy to overdub' date=' re-record and make multilayered harmony parts and widely large guitars that you can't reproduce live.

Live is where the mustard gets cut. If you can't do it live then you can't do it. That's not to say that pure studio artists are irrelevant, just my opinion.

I also think if you're a musician then you should be able to do at least something live....if you can't.....?[/quote']

Isn't that just snobbery though? When you are talking about the genres like hiphop, triphop, drumnbass, house, techno, of course its very difficult to do a live act, and infact i think its patronising to attempt to do so.

You can't write off whole genres and a whole swath of producers, just because they make their music in a studio rather than play it out live on stage. It's still music, at the end of the day.

[Alan Cynic]

Not in tune with Ibid here at all, especially "if you can't do it live you can't do it". Nick Drake couldn't do it live, but seems to have produced great music nonetheless. Richard Youngs was pretty nervous live, but his recordings sound fine to me. I could name tons of others, and no doubt Stripey could add an equal amount from his sphere of knowledge. A lot of live performance is showmanship, which is all well and good, but not the be all and end all, especially as regards creativity.

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Kitchen Cynics.....................................where's my dry ice?......................

[Hog]

Apart from a "white noise" band in Aberdeen, I think most genres have been done as far as Im aware. But there are some very great diverse acts out there i.e Simon Gall Bands, Vomitus, Reap, The Kitchen Cynics, Black Atom, The Data Thieves, Hearse Crash, MMW, Real Shocks etc, the list goes on!

[Guest Stripey]

Not in tune with Ibid here at all' date=' especially "if you can't do it live you can't do it". Nick Drake couldn't do it live, but seems to have produced great music nonetheless. Richard Youngs was pretty nervous live, but his recordings sound fine to me. I could name tons of others, and no doubt Stripey could add an equal amount from his sphere of knowledge. A lot of live performance is showmanship, which is all well and good, but not the be all and end all, especially as regards creativity.

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Kitchen Cynics.....................................where's my dry ice?......................[/quote']

One of the reasons I like drumnbass, is because there is no showmanship involved atall when it comes to the majority of the artists. The music succeeds purely on its own merit. It all comes out on 12" vinyl. Nobody knows who is behind it, until it gets popular or gets released on a label. The dubplate culture encourages this, anyone can get a dub pressed and get people they know to play it out. If its shit, it will fade off the map, if the club goers love it, it will become well known and people will start asking "what is that tune called?! I must have it!" It's a culture of faceless music.

Personally, I can see why people enjoy live music, its very engaging and up front. People don't just listen to music in clubs though, I don't go out much, I like to listen to music at home, and I really value recordings as a result.

My approach to music, is that it is like painting with sound, and I'm happy to spend days constructing a piece, which could never ever be played out live. It's one off pieces of art and I don't see anything wrong with that.

[Guest valley69]

Not in tune with Ibid here at all' date=' especially "if you can't do it live you can't do it". Nick Drake couldn't do it live, but seems to have produced great music nonetheless. Richard Youngs was pretty nervous live, but his recordings sound fine to me. I could name tons of others, and no doubt Stripey could add an equal amount from his sphere of knowledge. A lot of live performance is showmanship, which is all well and good, but not the be all and end all, especially as regards creativity.

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Kitchen Cynics.....................................where's my dry ice?......................[/quote']

you have a fair point there allan

[delboy]

mucho interesting late night reading here. Driveblind got signed whilst being based in aberdeen, they used to get record company execs flying up from London to see them do showcase gigs long before they were signed.

i dunno i'm not hearing much at the moment that i would class as innovative from aberdeen or indeed the world at the mo (which would probably explain my morrissey/cure phase at the moment), last couple of new things i heard that i found innovative were aka the fox and an edinburgh band the magnificants. but you know these things come in cycles and there's always good stuff to be found......

[Guest Sundaram]

Not really.

Not all bands have a good knowledge of recording techniques... not all bands can afford the equipment/studio time... thus can only really do their thing live.

I think live performance is the true test of skill... in recordings you can always re-do everything and anything' date=' you don't have to have presence or the abilility to play under pressure.

Live bands always get far more respect from me.[/quote']

I have equal respect for great live and recording based musicians, as both require a lot of skills.

The way I see it is:

The studio is where you can get everything sounding perfect and have all the notes, sounds etc just the way you want them.

Playing live is a way of communicating and interacting instantly with other musicians and the people/audience through music.

[delboy]

ah phillip johnston - the voice of reason once more!

[Guest Sundaram]

ah phillip johnston - the voice of reason once more!

Well at least, those are my ideals in relation to playing live and the studio!

[Guest The Reverend Z. Munch]

There isn't much innovation because there isn't a lot of people willing to put their necks on the chopping board and sacrifice popularity for credibility, most people want to play in a band to play music that their mates or people who like the music they like to cheer them on whenever they play a gig.

Too many bands want to play it safe and become popular by playing music thats deemed popular by the music publications, there isn't many people out there who have the courage of their convictions to actually invent their own sound or something thats at least different for themselves for fears of being called "self-indulgent".

I think the problem with a lot of bands here are that they are too busy trying to ape a particular sound and that in itself makes them limited because they find it hard to stray beyond that generic sound for fears of maybe alienating their audience, and there's too much of that attitude - what the audience thinks or what they'll like.

Rock music is too limited though because everything has been categorised and neatly pigeon-holed and incorporated into the system, its achieving nothing new at all.

All that most bands want to do is give people cheap thrills and flashy gimmicks, its just so fucking sick, its fucking fast food music, so disposable and limited in its appeal.

You'd think that there would be some motivation to take the structure of a genre and just fuck it up into something else entirely but no, most people like to play it safe within the confines of that genre so they can say "hey people, i'm in a emo band!".

Karoake with guitars and drums. Its no better than Pop Idol or Fame Academy.

Pah, its too late for serious discussion.

[Guest Nikola Tesla]

.

Pah' date=' its too late for serious discussion.[/quote']

SOOOOOOOOO DAMN TRUE, IF NOTHING ELSE

[Guest Ibid]

Read the post first. I believe I said that studio artists were relevant. Nick Drake did play live although he didn't like it, he could do it. Any musician can play live, given the rght circumstances. They may lack the special state of mind that allows artists to do it with confidence but they could do it. I know a violinist who plays in the SNO. She is absolutely first class when buried among the string section and superb playing fiddle for close friends, but she simply cannot stand up in front of strangers and play. It doesn't mean she's not a musician, she just lacks that special switch in the brain.

As was said, the studio is the perfection space, where your album or song is polished to a nice gloss for public consumption.

I also like Mike Oldfield. It would be extremely hard to perform Ommadawn live but it's still a great record. But give Oldfield a guitar or mandolin and he'll entertain you for hours.

[Alan Cynic]

I re-read your post, but you still say "if you can't do it live you can't do it". THAT's what I disagree with. Tons of people "do it", but never play live!

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Kitchen Cynics........................................"doing it" for the pensioners.....................

[soundian]

There isn't much innovation because there isn't a lot of people willing to put their necks on the chopping board and sacrifice popularity for credibility' date=' most people want to play in a band to play music that their mates or people who like the music they like to cheer them on whenever they play a gig.

Too many bands want to play it safe and become popular by playing music thats deemed popular by the music publications, there isn't many people out there who have the courage of their convictions to actually invent their own sound or something thats at least different for themselves for fears of being called "self-indulgent".

I think the problem with a lot of bands here are that they are too busy trying to ape a particular sound and that in itself makes them limited because they find it hard to stray beyond that generic sound for fears of maybe alienating their audience, and there's too much of that attitude - what the audience thinks or what they'll like.

Rock music is too limited though because everything has been categorised and neatly pigeon-holed and incorporated into the system, its achieving nothing new at all.

All that most bands want to do is give people cheap thrills and flashy gimmicks, its just so fucking sick, its fucking fast food music, so disposable and limited in its appeal.

You'd think that there would be some motivation to take the structure of a genre and just fuck it up into something else entirely but no, most people like to play it safe within the confines of that genre so they can say "hey people, i'm in a emo band!".

Karoake with guitars and drums. Its no better than Pop Idol or Fame Academy.

Pah, its too late for serious discussion.[/quote']

You're putting lack of motivation and fear of losing their 'fans' (which is gonna happen anyway to local bands who stay local, so why worry) but missing the obvious.

Unless you go out of your way nowadays to avoid it you're bombarded with music exactly as you describe it, fast food music. Is it any wonder that's what people think music is.

I think in any period of pop music history you'll find the same scenario.

And in any city in the world.

[Sky]

Karoake with guitars and drums. Its no better than Pop Idol or Fame Academy.

Pah' date=' its too late for serious discussion.[/quote']

Sadly, this is most likely true. The people responsible for the "me-too" bands in Aberdeen are unlikely to listen to anyone who doesn't shower them with compliments. Even more worrying, however, is that some of them actually believe that they are totally innovative and that anyone who criticises them does so because they "don't understand them" as they're far too avant-garde.

[Sky]

You're putting lack of motivation and fear of losing their 'fans' (which is gonna happen anyway to local bands who stay local' date=' so why worry) but missing the obvious.

Unless you go out of your way nowadays to avoid it you're bombarded with music exactly as you describe it, fast food music. Is it any wonder that's what people think music is.

I think in any period of pop music history you'll find the same scenario.

And in any city in the world.[/quote']

Just because you're constantly being bombarded with fast-food music doesn't necessarily excuse copying that music. Does that trend not worry you? In a community that proclaims so stridently that they're "alternative" and "open-minded", is it not alarming that these people copy everything that they hear? Intelligence is, of course, not always accompanied by innovation or originality, but one would hope for a slightly higher amount of both being in evidence in Aberdeen. Bear in mind that this is a student-filled city, with one of the best Universities in Scotland, and we still can't turn out anything other than Blinkalikes or Funeral For Our Formula? That's more worrying than anything.

You are right about having to go to great lengths: I have to constantly search for new bands and genres to interest me, and this search is usually only accomplished via a very long and time-consuming process involving the internet and recommendations/mentions from a wide variety of sources.

Finally, the fact that this problem is common to every city in the world does not excuse those guilty of propagating it.

[Guest highroller]

to be totally honest, and i SWEAR im just putting my opinion forward here and not wanting a huge argument.

Sky your views in this thread annoy me quite alot...you constantly talk like someone who has a good knowledge and understanding of the local scene when in fact you rarely attend gigs...if at all...as far as i know you dont go to Moshulu on club nights either.

Your views seem to have been formed from this site when the only true way to gather knowledge on the local scene is (rather obviously) to go to gigs and listen to local band releases.

I dont think there are many people on here who would actually know who you are if you were to go to a show. What I mean by this is that you have very little or no presence in relation to the kind of views you put in text on here. Most people on here will know who each other are even if they havent spoke just by seeing them regularly at shows.

Im not picking on you (I SWEAR ON MY TAMA DRUM KIT THAT I LOVE DEARLY) its just your posts bother get up my nose a bit coming from a non regular at local shows.

what was the last gig you were at, in all honesty?

You may prove me wrong. If so well done. Its merely my curiosity that has prompted me to ask.

[Guest Stripey]

to be totally honest' date=' and i SWEAR im just putting my opinion forward here and not wanting a huge argument.

Sky your views in this thread annoy me quite alot...you constantly talk like someone who has a good knowledge and understanding of the local scene when in fact you rarely attend gigs...if at all...as far as i know you dont go to Moshulu on club nights either.

Your views seem to have been formed from this site when the only true way to gather knowledge on the local scene is (rather obviously) to go to gigs and listen to local band releases.

I dont think there are many people on here who would actually know who you are if you were to go to a show. What I mean by this is that you have very little or no presence in relation to the kind of views you put in text on here. Most people on here will know who each other are even if they havent spoke just by seeing them regularly at shows.

Im not picking on you (I SWEAR ON MY TAMA DRUM KIT THAT I LOVE DEARLY) its just your posts bother get up my nose a bit coming from a non regular at local shows.

what was the last gig you were at, in all honesty?

You may prove me wrong. If so well done. Its merely my curiosity that has prompted me to ask.[/quote']

Personally I think Sky has got it spot on. I don't go to gigs either, and I don't intend to. Do you have to be a regular scenester to be able to put forward an opinion? Maybe a lot of you are too "close" to the scene to be able to rationally criticise it. You should value external viewpoints, not try and silence them.

[Guest highroller]

stripey...i think you may have to re-read my post.

i dont really take your views the same as sky's...if i did I would have said.

Thats cool if you think he has it spot on. To be honest alot of what he has said is true. I didnt say i disagreed with what he said. My point was it grates me slightly that he forms these opinions with not having been to alot of gigs and knowing bands in Aberdeen. Dont try to put words in my mouth. cool?

[Camie]

yes but i think what he is trying to say is you cant say aberdeen doesnt have a lot of innovation when you havent seen a lot of local acts play.

[Guest highroller]

oh and why should "we" value external viewpoints...haha thats quite ridiculous if you STOP and THINK...hahaha!!

" I think you guys sound like every other hardcore band! "

"really..err why"

"you just do"

"err ok...have you seen us live?"

"No!"

"have you heard us?"

"yeah...one or two mp'3s"

"which ones"

"the ones you recorded 8 months ago...not long after you started!"

"ohhhh righhht"

"well...well i look at your influences and what your listening to and I already know what you sound like...so there...!"

"errr...okay then...byeeeee"

your post stripey is rather stupid.

Camie goes to alot of shows, buys alot of music, says he likes weapon alot...cool!

Pete Harper, goes to alot of shows, buys alot of music, says he doesnt really like weapon...cool!

you see where im going here huh?

[Guest Stripey]

It's not stupid atall. For people like you this more about your social life than any kind of artistry, which is why the music suffers.

I don't give a toss about going to local gigs or hanging out in moshulu, I like music, not pantomime.

Why do you insist that you MUST go to gigs to appreciate the bands in aberdeen? Why do you bother having websites with mp3's in the first place, if you put up shit and old recordings which dont reflect what you are doing now? What do you think someone from france or australia or wherever is gonna think when they see your website and hear those mp3's? Are you gonna tell them they have to come to aberdeen to hear the great amazing artistic music you make, because you're too fucking bone idle to actually work on decent recordings and do them regularly?

You are the one with a dumb attitude here, not me.