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Appreciating music if you play or don't play an instrument


Soda Jerk

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i was thinking about a similar thing to this the other day in that you get different types of music 'listeners'. People who consider music art and people who consider music entertainment.

The arty camp are more likely to get more heavily involved in music and enjoy all the parts of how it's created, and these are the folks that will take the time out to consider (or just realise) when a musician is truly skilled and/or unique. It just so happens that musicians or the art group also love to shut off their brain and let the music take over... a lot... possibly while under the influence.

I am a guitarist who loves everything about music but i feel just as blown away when i hear something incredibly difficult as i do when i hear a massive swelling brilliant chorus that's really quite simple. I get the spine tingles for both. It really comes down to bewilderment for me, i can't believe folky fingers pickers sometimes for example, i just have no idea how it feels to play like that or how to start to dissect it but as a songwriter i feel the same way about a near perfect vocal melody/harmonies. This is exactly the same reason why i love astrophysics and quantum physics but this aint the time nor the place!

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It makes me wonder just how much recorded music passes a lot of people by. A complicated vocal harmony could be dismissed as just 2 or more people singing at the same time to someone who doesn't listen out for that kind of thing. Same goes for an odd time signature or a complex riff.

I think vocal harmonies are certainly one of the aspects that a lot of people really aren't aware of how much talent it requires to not only sing but to write. Not just the standard 2 people singing, one a third interval higher up. But counter melodies and obscurer intervals like 7th and 9ths

Beach boys and Queen as already mentioned are fantastic examples, probably the best from the rock and pop worlds respectively. Some of the stuff mentioned in the pop songs thread as well, Seals 'kiss from a rose' has amazing vocals going on.

As much as you don't associate metallica with that sort of thing, if you listen to the likes of 'Wherever I May Roam' from the black album it is incredible how layered it is in some places, and you really just don't realise it if you let the song wash over you. I've heard some of the vocals of this song isolated from the music and it's really interesting. It's a shame they never really pursued heavily layered or harmonised beyond that album really.

Not that many people will be fully aware of his music, and if Hog reads this thread he'll coat his pants with a massive portion of population paste, but Devin Townsends vocal work is absolutely insane.

The pre-choruses (first one at about 1:03) and the last chorus at 3:16 are huge, although you really need to listen to this on headphones to appreciate what's going on.

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I can also marvel at Jazz even though I can't really follow what's going on because it's a bit mad. Blue Grass, on the other hand, doesn't really do anything for me.

I don't particularly like jazz per se, I think it can often be a bit wanky and technical, ie "show-offy" and technical just for the sake of being technical.

But maybe you're just listening to the wrong bluegrass. :) To me, it comes down to whether or not they're good songs or not, here's a couple of great bluegrass songs for your listening pleasure. :up:

YouTube - Steve Earle and the Del McCoury Band @ Farm Aid

(Also, apart from the playing it's quite interesting watch because they only use one microphone so there's a real art to the right person being in the right place at the right time, like synchronised swimming.)

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here's a couple of great bluegrass songs for your listening pleasure. :up:

That is pretty amazing bluegrass. I have seen Gillian Welch before who is also amazing but I confess I just have a prejudice against the plinkity-plonkity honky tonk sound and country/folk in general. I'm fully with you on the 'wankiness' of jazz but it just doesn't irritate me in the same way.

(nice.)

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If I didn't play drums, I wouldn't listen to half the music I listen to these days.

I expect a lot of people who play an instrument have sussed out who the most respected players of that instrument are, and have sought out their music, regardless of style.

I used to only listen to mainstream rock n roll, but through checking out a who's who of top drummers like Vinnie Colaiuta, Tony Williams, David Garibaldi and loads others, I've exposed myself to loads of other styles.....looking at my CD collection now, you'd have no clue what my favourite genre is.

As for whether I, as a drummer, listen to stuff differently to a non-drummer, I would have to say yes......it's unavoidable. You're always listening out for stuff to rip-off, and I find it impossible to ignore it.

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That is pretty amazing bluegrass. I have seen Gillian Welch before who is also amazing but I confess I just have a prejudice against the plinkity-plonkity honky tonk sound and country/folk in general. I'm fully with you on the 'wankiness' of jazz but it just doesn't irritate me in the same way.

(nice.)

Ooh, Gillian Welch. Not really blugrass, in fact I don't know how the fuck you would define her. Americana I guess. But check out this track, just beautiful.

Gillian Welch My Morphine Free listening & lyrics at Last.fm

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The idea behind this discussion was based on a conversation I had with a friend a few years ago. We were discussing a band we both liked and I mentioned how I liked the guitar playing alot. He asked what was different about this guitar playing to other punk rock bands. I explained the use of arpeggios. The way the notes were being picked individually instead of strummed, and how this technique was combined with palm muting and such. He still didn't seem to understand the difference. So, we both listened to the song, and I pointed out the techniques and how they alter. He considered these parts to only really shift in volume than style, and couldn't pick out the different techniques and guitar sounds. He referred to one part being louder and one being quieter. I found it quite amazing that as someone who seems to absolutely love music but can't play a single note could not pick out these differences in instrumentation, yet I could. Not only that, but those subtle techniques completely swayed my opinion of it favourably. I can't help but wonder just how many great songwriting techniques go completely unnoticed. Just the subtle guitar harmony, or the shift in time signature. These things could mean absolutely nothing to someone who isn't that musically involved, but could also mean that band is someones favourite band to someone who is.

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Ooh, Gillian Welch. Not really blugrass, in fact I don't know how the fuck you would define her. Americana I guess. But check out this track, just beautiful.

Gillian Welch My Morphine Free listening & lyrics at Last.fm

That is beautiful. I did see her at the Hardly Strictly Bluegrass festival which makes sense that she wouldn't be. Strictly bluegrass that is.

But, to get more back on topic, I personally feel that it's not so much a case of not being able to play or having very scant knowledge of music theory, but rather being much more versed in particular styles. The 'your music all sounds the same' phenomenon where you don't pick up on the subtleties of a style of music when it's alien to you.

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That is beautiful. I did see her at the Hardly Strictly Bluegrass festival which makes sense that she wouldn't be. Strictly bluegrass that is.

Cool stuff, San Francisco, yeah? SF's one of my favourite places in teh world anyway (steady) so that must be an ace festival.

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Cool stuff, San Francisco, yeah? SF's one of my favourite places in teh world anyway (steady) so that must be an ace festival.

Yep, they hold it in Golden Gate Park every summer (I think) and it's definitely a good time to plan a visit if you're a big fan. Take a picnic, soak up the suna nd sounds. Not too shabby :up:

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I stuggle to comment on this from a personal perspective as playing an instrument predates me having a genuine interest in listening to music. When I started taking it more seriously then I heard different things in the music that weren't obvious before. Now I may be able to hear chord progressions, imaagine how it would be written down and identify concepts in the music. This sort of depends how switched on I am when I istening however.

I still appreciate a good song although my idea of what makes a good song may have changed to some extent.

On the other side of things, some stuff seems to have been concidered 'musician music'. Particualrly that with fast complex grooves and strange harmony etc. Music is such a big part of our lives and we're generally used to hearing standard 4 beats in the bar stuff with convential harmony that when someone plays something with odd measures or more complex harmony it instantly makes us pay attenention and follow it with a larger part of our brain. It isn't that this sort of music is in any way better, it just has more for us to pay attention to and analyse, which is exciting to a lot of musicians. A lot of people instantly switch off when they hear this type of stuff and I guess this is the difference.

There are former decades where much of the stuff we now think of as 'musician music' had a mainstream following and large parts of the world where it still is conciedered mainstream among non-musicians also.

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There are former decades...

say, the 80s.

...where much of the stuff we now think of as 'musician music' had a mainstream following ...

such as wankfest 80s rock.

...and parts of the world where it still is conciedered mainstream among non-musicians also.

like germany.

I like 80s rock.

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The way I see it, to answer the question it's maybe useful to compare music to other forms of art. Few would argue that in order to appreciate the beauty of, say, a painting you must have an extensive knowledge or mastery of brushtrokes and shading techniques. However, an understanding of other contributing factors in the process of any artwork's creation unquestionably adds to your appreciation of it beyond the aesthetic.

For example, take any Dali painting... On the surface they are pretty, brash, sombre, fun, or any adjective relevant to your particular taste in visual art. You may pick up on various allusions and visual metaphors at first glance but in order to understand his works in a manner that goes beyond their immediate emotive impact it is, I feel, necessary to have at least the minimum of knowledge about the context in which they were created. (i.e. details such as Dali's bio, the ideology, themes and pre-occupations of the surrealist/dadaist movement, the goings on in the rest of the art world at the time, the political/economic climate, etc).

But, whether you yourself have the skill to draw or paint, I would argue, changes very little in regards to the analysis of a Dali painting. You may admire his style and want to emulate it, or recognise certain techniques that others don't pick up on but the critical perception and enjoyment (or distaste, again depending on your taste) of a Dali painting encompasses so many more factors that your own status as someone who creates art themselves becomes a minor detail.

So applying this idea to music gives this: Someone listens to a (for example) Frank Zappa record and immediately likes it, the busy sound of such complicated arrangements and the silly lyrics are something that hits a chord with the listener and he/she becomes a fan. With already a sound knowledge of music history, the evolution of genres, etc, etc this person reads up specifically about Frank Zappa's life, his philosophy, his influences and is at a position where he/she can fully appreciate the art he has created. I'm not sure whether this person would be in any better a position to critique, enjoy or appreciate Zappa's music if he could play music himself. Like in painting, they may pick up on technical features but that is a minor part of the whole.

Basically my point is that enjoyment and analysis (I see the two as being inextricably linked; in order to enjoy or not enjoy something you must have subjected it to a certain level of analysis) of music depends on a lot more than recognising specifically how the sound was created. Being a musician may well contribute to how you view a piece of music but it is as big a determining factor as a whole number of things and certainly not as clear cut as 'I'm a musician, you're not. Therefore I will like this band more than you' . (Not that anyone has said that, just for the purposes of discussion). If you are to analyse further than your initial reaction to a piece of music you must acquire knowledge that spans a lot further than the technical details of it's creation.

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I definitely agree that playing an instrument makes you listen to music in a different way, I feel that it gives you the ability to deconstruct whats happening. If I stretch my memory back to 1983-84, just as I was starting to listen to lots of music, but before I started playing properly (about early '85), I was listening exclusively to metal; NWOBHM and early Thrash mainly with some other stuff (Jake era Ozzy, Ratt). Remembering now, it used to seem to me that Music was effectively, Magic (not meaning ace), that it was beamed out using powers beyond my comprehension by mythic people of genuine power, as a unified entity that defied analysis*. It Just Was. I could no more figure out what Ritchie Blackmore (say) was doing than I could move matter with my mind. There are many upsides to learning instrumentation, but to me the main downside is moving away from this magical perspective to the banality of reality; sore fingers that don't move how you want them to. On the plus side their is improved comprehension and an appreciation of the ways in which music is linked, to other facets of itself, and to external factors. My deconstructive skills were also honed when I got into home recording/electronic production. Liberated by the Digital Music Revolution that has democratised our means of production (in the Marxist meaning of the term), removing it from the hands of the few, has been the most important cultural shift to have occurred in music in my lifetime, and we are still only at the very beginning of the process.

I still miss the Innocent Magic feeling of Blissful Ignorance though sometimes.

*Seriously, I had no conception of what a chord was, or even tuning for the 1st year I owned a guitar, I owe everything to the Rockschool Tuition book, linked to the TV programme, (great show)

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I've noticed I have a bias towards music with singers rather than instrumentals which I guess are most prevalent in classical music.

I don't think that when you learn an instrument that you are necessarily better able to appreciate a good piece of music. I think that perhaps you are more able to express why you like or don't like it.

I truly hate bands that do complicated stuff just for the hell of it. It's that type of musical masturbation that I try and avoid at all costs. Ok, you are good at your instrument but FFS that doesn't mean you have a right to indulge in some musical wankery.

There are a few local bands that are guilty of this 'everyone else shut up, I'm going to play like I'm doing a constant solo' type of guff. /rant.

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I truly hate bands that do complicated stuff just for the hell of it. It's that type of musical masturbation that I try and avoid at all costs. Ok, you are good at your instrument but FFS that doesn't mean you have a right to indulge in some musical wankery.

That would be because you are not the proud owner of a penis, love.

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Ok, you are good at your instrument but FFS that doesn't mean you have a right to indulge in some musical wankery.

Well, it kinda does. It's their prerogative what they do with their musical abilities. I don't like the majority of overly complicated music, as there's rarely a tune in it, but some people dig that kind of thing. It does come across as a format of just showing off, alot like these "Shred Videos" on youtube or whatever, but it's a musical output all the same, and is equally as valid as a band writing simple pop songs.

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Well, it kinda does. It's their prerogative what they do with their musical abilities. I don't like the majority of overly complicated music, as there's rarely a tune in it, but some people dig that kind of thing. It does come across as a format of just showing off, alot like these "Shred Videos" on youtube or whatever, but it's a musical output all the same, and is equally as valid as a band writing simple pop songs.

yeah that's my point, it's just not my cup of tea.

In the limited experience I have had to going to gigs, it seems that the people who try their hardest to show off are actually the people who are the least talented. :popcorn:

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The idea behind this discussion was based on a conversation I had with a friend a few years ago. We were discussing a band we both liked and I mentioned how I liked the guitar playing alot. He asked what was different about this guitar playing to other punk rock bands. I explained the use of arpeggios. The way the notes were being picked individually instead of strummed, and how this technique was combined with palm muting and such. He still didn't seem to understand the difference. So, we both listened to the song, and I pointed out the techniques and how they alter. He considered these parts to only really shift in volume than style, and couldn't pick out the different techniques and guitar sounds. He referred to one part being louder and one being quieter. I found it quite amazing that as someone who seems to absolutely love music but can't play a single note could not pick out these differences in instrumentation, yet I could. Not only that, but those subtle techniques completely swayed my opinion of it favourably. I can't help but wonder just how many great songwriting techniques go completely unnoticed. Just the subtle guitar harmony, or the shift in time signature. These things could mean absolutely nothing to someone who isn't that musically involved, but could also mean that band is someones favourite band to someone who is.

I was gonna say the this basically. a person who can't play an instrument can probably pinpoint what and when are widely considered the best parts of a song, but maybe not be able to label it like somebody who does listen to music. the simplest example probably a key change or something... probably the biggest unit shifter of all time.

listening to a lot of music has let me 'study' music more intensely picking out parts and subtleties that i probably wouldn't have before.

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I have to ask, how does whether or not I have a walloper have anything to do with musical taste....? :music:

owning a ding dong has everything to do everything when it comes to the difference between male and female perception of things.

In the case of musical wankery then look no futher than youtube: the ratio of guys to girls doin shredz lolz videos must be infinity billion to one.

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owning a ding dong has everything to do everything when it comes to the difference between male and female perception of things.

In the case of musical wankery then look no futher than youtube: the ratio of guys to girls doin shredz lolz videos must be infinity billion to one.

Hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm...........*nods and rubs chin*

I think you might have a point there :up: maybe us girlies are a bit more reserved. Or something.....:popcorn:

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