Wind-up?

[The Milner]

as much as you guys disagree, theres no need to constantly insult him, he is making a decent point without being a knob about it, you may disagree but surely we can all do that without turning this into another bitch fest. His point is simple, if you didnt know anything about the band you could be forgiven for thinking the worst. for us who maybe know one or two of the band members its easy to sit here and defend them but to a complete outsider it could look bad until they looked a bit closer, read some threads on here ect.

[Rob_86]

Haha - you sound like such a twat.

Intentions this, intentions that. And, yes I do think you along with those stupid feminists and MSPs that have taken offence to Wifebeater are morons. If you took the time to listen to the songs, think about the song titles etc it is very clear that they are being ironic.

Live Aid was still music, but the actual songs had nothing to do with poverty. The musicians influenced people, not the music. Yes, they used their music to grab folk's attention, but they then spoke at great length about the subject. If they had just put on a concert called Live Aid, and donated what they made from it to the cause, without telling people about it, people wouldn't suddenly have started thinking about the poverty in the world. But, because they went on at great length about it, and highlighted the issues, with those harrowing videos etc. That is when people sat up and listened.

You keep making stupid analogies to back up your stupid points. Child Abuse, BNP, Poverty in Africa - fuck all to do with Wifebeater the band or even domestic abuse.

Yeah it's not like there are sexist promoting bands or anything, they are all just being ironic. Seriously, do you read your posts or think about them at all?

I'm sure you are correct about the live aid issue - but surely music still had an amazing effect. That is why they used music primarily, because of the effect in can have. Your argument is at odds with certain things though, even if I was wrong about liveaid, clearly I am not about anarcho punk in the 80s, and music in youth subcultures. And hence, our original point on this revoked.

Actually anaologies are a pretty useful way of drawing out falacies in people's views, if you're coming out badly in them perhaps you need to look at the views you hold not at the analogy. Please do explain why they are wrong if you think so - but if you're just gonna respond like 'fuck you, you're wrong' then I suggest lunchtime at a secondary school is the place, not in debate about ethical concerns in music.

[Rob_86]

as much as you guys disagree, theres no need to constantly insult him, he is making a decent point without being a knob about it, you may disagree but surely we can all do that without turning this into another bitch fest. His point is simple, if you didnt know anything about the band you could be forgiven for thinking the worst. for us who maybe know one or two of the band members its easy to sit here and defend them but to a complete outsider it could look bad until they looked a bit closer, read some threads on here ect.

Thanks, I appreciate that. I'm happy to debate it, but I can't see the point in turning into children about it, I mean whats the point of that? Serious and actual, respectful points from now on would be good

[scottyboy]

Do you have any respect for anyone? Please read my last post - wihtout going to a gig there was not one sign that it was irony. There do exist sexist bands, there do exist nazi bands, there do exist bands that promote violence - why is it so 'fuckwitting' (you will have to tell me if this is the correct pronunciation) to assume this one promotes two of those, seeing as there appears to be no evidence to say the opposite? Sorry but I am clearly a fuckwit, and have not studied such reasoning.

So what kind of investigation did you do exactly, to determine decide whether or not Wifebeater might be inciting domestic violence? Read the band name? And again, assuming Joe Public is unable to discern that Wifebeater is ironic, what do you want them to do? Put a disclaimer on their music? Stop playing altogether?

[scottyboy]

His point is simple, if you didnt know anything about the band you could be forgiven for thinking the worst. for us who maybe know one or two of the band members its easy to sit here and defend them but to a complete outsider it could look bad until they looked a bit closer, read some threads on here ect.

You mean... like... informing oneself about the actual topic being discussed?

[qzdiablo]

this thread has grown by 9 pages since i last opened it

are these pages worth reading?

[The Milner]

You mean... like... informing oneself about the actual topic being discussed?

Point me to information on wifebeater appart from this thread.

[Rob_86]

So what kind of investigation did you do exactly, to determine decide whether or not Wifebeater might be inciting domestic violence? Read the band name? And again, assuming Joe Public is unable to discern that Wifebeater, what do you want them to do? Put a disclaimer on their music? Stop playing altogether?

I didn't do any investigation, I simply used my head. People are influenced by things, especially so in the case of music, wifebeater aren't discernably ironic to most (though not most on here before anyone starts) or at least a good deal of folk, there do exist many people these days that have certain indifferences to male/female roles which allow for engraving in either direction...etc. Look, I'm not going to patronise you and go through every different situation, these are the general starter points. It is possible that, given more exposure (even without the smaller concerns regarding there being a band with that name on posters, or being irony about a serious problem issue etc) a band like this could cause a good few problems of domestic abuse. It isn't hard to see, and I'm sure we could all agree it is there. I just think the folks in the band should be aware of this, and other musicians on the scene if they already aren't. The majority view in society is 'well, I didn't mean it so I'm not to blame' which is fair enough, but we should have more responsibility than that - as we do influence each other more than that - and especially bands as I have stated previosuly.

[scottyboy]

Point me to information on wifebeater appart from this thread.

So has he not read this thread?

[Rob_86]

Point me to information on wifebeater appart from this thread.

I tried my best to find info on them, I didn't hate or even know any of the guys, i thought it was a strange name for a band after a mate mentioned them, and genuinely couldn't find anything, so I reckon this is a pretty crucial point for people like me let alone the unawaring joe public

And from what I know, this thread wasn't around when I was looking. And there was certainly no mention on gig threads, or the myspace page, which you really would have thought there would be.

[The Milner]

So has he not read this thread?

would it be prudent to base all your opinions on one source?

[Rob_86]

Erm guys, this thread was opened on the 3rd March, quite a long time after the band started if I'm not mistaken

[Rob_86]

my bad, was started on the 2nd March

[The Milner]

Erm guys, this thread was opened on the 3rd March, quite a long time after the band started if I'm not mistaken

you mean after they finished, the band split up because of what is being dicussed here, amongst other things none of us need to know about.

[scottyboy]

So which is it? Were you aware of Wifebeater before the existence of this thread, in which case you could have listened to Wifebeater's music, either at a gig or via myspace? Or not until afterwards (when they took their site down), in which case reading this thread should have been fine?

http://www.aberdeen-music.com/forums/music-discussion/54396-wind-up-17.html

[Alkaline]

That band would be awesome.

CH-CH-CH-CH-CH-CH-CHERRY BREAKER

How about Slit Ripper?

[scottyboy]

I didn't do any investigation, I simply used my head. People are influenced by things, especially so in the case of music, wifebeater aren't discernably ironic to most (though not most on here before anyone starts) or at least a good deal of folk, there do exist many people these days that have certain indifferences to male/female roles which allow for engraving in either direction...etc. Look, I'm not going to patronise you and go through every different situation, these are the general starter points. It is possible that, given more exposure (even without the smaller concerns regarding there being a band with that name on posters, or being irony about a serious problem issue etc) a band like this could cause a good few problems of domestic abuse. It isn't hard to see, and I'm sure we could all agree it is there. I just think the folks in the band should be aware of this, and other musicians on the scene if they already aren't. The majority view in society is 'well, I didn't mean it so I'm not to blame' which is fair enough, but we should have more responsibility than that - as we do influence each other more than that - and especially bands as I have stated previosuly.

But how did you know they aren't discernibly ironic if you didn't bother to find out anything about them? The notion "a band like this could cause a good few problems of domestic abuse" is utter baseless nonsense just like the rest of you're musings on civilisation. Your basically just admitting you heard about a band called Wifebeater on the radio and decided to complain about it without having a clue what your talking about.

[Scorge]

this thread has grown by 9 pages since i last opened it

are these pages worth reading?

Nope, just some nugget who thinks that debating eloquently over a band he has no vested interest in is a good way to pass the time.....

Can we please close this thread?

That Dave mod is always going on about how this site should be useful and relevent' date=' it's been the same recycled points made at least for the last ten pages.

Fucks sake. It's getting tedious.[/quote']

Quoted for truth.

[Bin Laden's Daughter]

It is starting to sound like band-wagon jumping. A band who's name and 'schtick' have a few pc folks tutting, and as soon as someone jumps on them everyone else piles in like cluster-fucks. It's a bit like the Brand/ Ross/ Manuel incident.

When you say your investigations included...erm... reading this thread, did you read it all? Did you read my earlier comment about Crass and the Dead Kennedy's lyrics.

In your Utopian society, would the Dead Kennedys have been banned for singing about killing poor people and making light of Pol Pot and the killing fields? Did the punk movement as a whole become discernably more anti-cambodian, or were there punk-pogroms against the poor because of this?

Strict regulation of peoples lives is NOT characteristic of anarchism. Censorship is clearly a tool of the fascist state.

I think you need to credit people who listen to music with a bit more intelligence, most people don't need you, or anyone, else to think for them- they want to do it themselves and rightly so. The guy who wrote the lyrics has now clearly stated the intention as ironic, and most who have actually seen/ heard/ met the band (without any preconception of guilt) have 'got' it. And yet they keep being likened to Nazi's- a very subtle way of painting them in a negative light without actually saying it.

It also occurred to me that there are two other situations which I can't really speculate on

CASE A: Perhaps the lyricist came from a background of domestic abuse. After years of not talking about it to anyone, the only way to express the pent up anger was to write songs about it. Chanting all the bullshit excuses he has heard used as lyrics.

CASE B: Perhaps the lyricist has indulged in a bit of handiness at home at some point, to his eternal guilt and shame. Perhaps the songs are telling us what he did as a way of exorcising these feelings.

I couldn't say if either of these cases were true and I certainly wouldn't expect anyone to be so candid about their personal life on 'teh Internut'. But these are possibilities you have to consider as well. Though my intial reading of them was Post-Modern Irony, plain and simple. That belief hasn't changed.

And the thought of wife-beaters going to see a band just because they percieve them as 'promoting domestic violence' makes me laugh so much- do they have conventions too? Heh!

Most wifebeaters aren't proud of it, many are ashamed and hide it under a veneer of 'normal family life', often apologising after the event, crying and promising to change. I can't see them all congregating at a Wifebeater gig! Ludicrous!.

As Wifebeater mainly play in pubs and don't have any real cd's available- in what way will they corrupt children?

[The Kernel Loaf]

How about Slit Ripper?

That would definitely be the drummer's name.

[Bigsby]

he is making a decent point without being a knob about it

Wrong on both counts. Plenty of folk have explained quite clearly why the thrust of his argument is fatally flawed, but he chooses to ignore this by claiming that his points are "clear" or "simple".

And that Mr Milne, is knob-like behaviour of the highest order.

[Rob_86]

But how did you know they aren't discernibly ironic if you didn't bother to find out anything about them? The notion "a band like this could cause a good few problems of domestic abuse" is utter baseless nonsense just like the rest of you're musings on civilisation. Your basically just admitting you heard about a band called Wifebeater on the radio and decided to complain about it without having a clue what your talking about.

No I heard about them on here, posters around the place, and through my mates - and as already mentioned, not just by me, there is no sign that they are being ironic - and as they stated there aim was to piss people off, so presumably that is why they didn't let on. This thread started after they ended(or around that time?), not a lot of use at the time

[Rob_86]

It is starting to sound like band-wagon jumping. A band who's name and 'schtick' have a few pc folks tutting, and as soon as someone jumps on them everyone else piles in like cluster-fucks. It's a bit like the Brand/ Ross/ Manuel incident.

When you say your investigations included...erm... reading this thread, did you read it all? Did you read my earlier comment about Crass and the Dead Kennedy's lyrics.

In your Utopian society, would the Dead Kennedys have been banned for singing about killing poor people and making light of Pol Pot and the killing fields? Did the punk movement as a whole become discernably more anti-cambodian, or were there punk-pogroms against the poor because of this?

Strict regulation of peoples lives is NOT characteristic of anarchism. Censorship is clearly a tool of the fascist state.

I think you need to credit people who listen to music with a bit more intelligence, most people don't need you, or anyone, else to think for them- they want to do it themselves and rightly so. The guy who wrote the lyrics has now clearly stated the intention as ironic, and most who have actually seen/ heard/ met the band (without any preconception of guilt) have 'got' it. And yet they keep being likened to Nazi's- a very subtle way of painting them in a negative light without actually saying it.

It also occurred to me that there are two other situations which I can't really speculate on

CASE A: Perhaps the lyricist came from a background of domestic abuse. After years of not talking about it to anyone, the only way to express the pent up anger was to write songs about it. Chanting all the bullshit excuses he has heard used as lyrics.

CASE B: Perhaps the lyricist has indulged in a bit of handiness at home at some point, to his eternal guilt and shame. Perhaps the songs are telling us what he did as a way of exorcising these feelings.

I couldn't say if either of these cases were true and I certainly wouldn't expect anyone to be so candid about their personal life on 'teh Internut'. But these are possibilities you have to consider as well. Though my intial reading of them was Post-Modern Irony, plain and simple. That belief hasn't changed.

And the thought of wife-beaters going to see a band just because they percieve them as 'promoting domestic violence' makes me laugh so much- do they have conventions too? Heh!

Most wifebeaters aren't proud of it, many are ashamed and hide it under a veneer of 'normal family life', often apologising after the event, crying and promising to change. I can't see them all congregating at a Wifebeater gig! Ludicrous!.

As Wifebeater mainly play in pubs and don't have any real cd's available- in what way will they corrupt children?

On the contrary, I have discussed the points you make and think I have ignored, on censorship and how this band strikes me as a bit different to other examples that people bought up earlier in the thread.

There's PC, which is often a tool used in oversensitivity, and there are bands that cross the line from irony into the same group as those bands that do promote things like sexist attacks etc, and other than those of us who didn't realise they were 'being ironic' (despite there being no evidence of this) being completely stupid apparently, and so the ironic intentions justify it, then there is no other defense of that is there?

[Rob_86]

Wrong on both counts. Plenty of folk have explained quite clearly why the thrust of his argument is fatally flawed, but he chooses to ignore this by claiming that his points are "clear" or "simple".

And that Mr Milne, is knob-like behaviour of the highest order.

Lol, yep I'm sure people will read your post and assume you are correct - unfortunately just disagreeing doesn't counter arguments, and I have refuted every single response quiote reasonably. Perhaps you could study a course in logic or something? You seem to think that replying once, with comments that are then easily refuted, is a winning method - let me assure you it is not. I hope the insults are fun for you though - it's nice to know that kind of thing is the way to discuss issues on this board.

And fatally flawed, that would imply my argument didn't logically follow on, or was false at some point - at which no one has pointed out the part it was. There has been discussion, but I'm pretty sure I have answered the replies. The go to card of 'it's Political Correctness gone mad!' didn't work as there are reasonable links to negative impact, and the 'everybody who doesn't get purposefully hidden irony is a twat so it doesn't matter', now that is a flawed argument. Perhaps you could say why it is fatally flawed, because I think the other guys who did must have deleted their posts - either that or your throwing your insults around for no reason - and that's not like you. Unless you're going to sit on the ace in the musicians pack - 'musicians shouldn't be responsible for their impact on people'. Oh yeah I totally agree, after all musicians are Gods who shouldn't have to answer to anyone...or is there a new argument, perhaps based around 'you're a knob, and you don't realise it's cool to offend people - hence this music is justified'?

[Alan Cynic]

those of us who didn't realise they were 'being ironic' (despite there being no evidence of this) being completely stupid apparently

correct (although 'completely stupid' is a bit strong...perhaps 'lacking in awareness', or 'deliberately avoiding awareness' might be more apt).

Hopefully you are now aware, and we can all relax and enjoy the music.