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Panda Strong

how will the Gaza situation end?

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End is that Gaza Strip will exist no longer, Israel will steal it much like they did with, urmm, the whole rest of Israel, United Nations will impotently waggle a disapproving finger while the US supports the indiscriminate bombing of a civilian population cos like Jews are rich lobbyists and arabs are like y'ken terrorists.

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His relatives will clean up by speaking shite to the media, and he will do a triple back flip with pike or something aff a bridge and be in the Guiness book of records for having the most ludicrous ending to an otherwise noteworthy existence - well apart fae gaeing Jimmy five bellies dog shite to eat in a pie or something . .gyad sakes min

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Guest Hobo
His relatives will clean up by speaking shite to the media, and he will do a triple back flip with pike or something aff a bridge and be in the Guiness book of records for having the most ludicrous ending to an otherwise noteworthy existence - well apart fae gaeing Jimmy five bellies dog shite to eat in a pie or something . .gyad sakes min

Your post, it is, full of, excellence!!

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End is that Gaza Strip will exist no longer, Israel will steal it much like they did with, urmm, the whole rest of Israel, United Nations will impotently waggle a disapproving finger while the US supports the indiscriminate bombing of a civilian population cos like Jews are rich lobbyists and arabs are like y'ken terrorists.

Do you work for the BBC? :down:

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I take it you disagree with the phrase you've bolded? Why?!

Air strikes targeting buildings in heavily populated areas fail to make any distinction between the people they actually kill.

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I take it you disagree with the phrase you've bolded? Why?!

Air strikes targeting buildings in heavily populated areas fail to make any distinction between the people they actually kill.

That's because Hamas purposefully hide themselves in civillian areas. It's completely unfair and untrue to say Israel indiscriminately bombs civillians. The terrorists they are targetting hide within highly populated areas; it's the fault of Hamas that there are so many unecessary civillian casualties.

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That's because Hamas purposefully hide themselves in civillian areas. It's completely unfair and untrue to say Israel indiscriminately bombs civillians. The terrorists they are targetting hide within highly populated areas; it's the fault of Hamas that there are so many unecessary civillian casualties.

Okay, I retract my "the indiscriminate bombing of a civilian population" and replace with "Israel not giving two shits about murdering innocent bystanders when targetting security threats".

A common argument from there mentions "well the Hamas are targetting innocent civilians" and the rebuttal is "well, aye - that's what makes it fair to call them terrorists, the bad guys. Governments, armies, Israel for example, are generally expected to play the part of good guys and protect non-combatants life & property. These air strikes will always destroy, injure or kill more than the target."

Imagine if the UK government had launched air strikes on Londonderry, managing to destroy a whole row of terraced housing & their resident families in an attempt to kill two or three bombers living at number four.

I don't believe the scale of Israel's action against the threats is anywhere near justifiable.

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Okay, I retract my "the indiscriminate bombing of a civilian population" and replace with "Israel not giving two shits about murdering innocent bystanders when targetting security threats".

A common argument from there mentions "well the Hamas are targetting innocent civilians" and the rebuttal is "well, aye - that's what makes it fair to call them terrorists, the bad guys. Governments, armies, Israel for example, are generally expected to play the part of good guys and protect non-combatants life & property."

Imagine if the UK government had launched air strikes on Londonderry, managing to destroy a whole row of terraced housing & resident families in an attempt to kill two or three bombers living at number four.

I don't believe the scale of Israel's action against the threats is anywhere near justifiable.

Aye, Israel are in a lose-lose situation. They can't do nothing whilst huge swathes of their population live with the threat of being rocketed from across the border. Yet, if they try and act, they are accused of using disproportionate force.

That's the problem with fighhing terrorists. Hamas deliberately target civillians, it's them that don't give a shit. Equally, they evidently don't give a shit if Palestinian civillians are killed. Hamas were repeatedly warned by Israel and Egypt that the continuation of rocketing at the border would lead to an Isreali backlash. They chose to ignore those warnings, so it is them who are accountable.

Speaking of disproportion, it's a bit much to compare the Gaza strip with Northern Ireland. It's not as if hundreds of rockets were being launched into England every week. If they had been, don't you think the government would have acted?

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I don't think he's comparing the amount of rockets with the conflict in Ireland but more the 'no end in sight' idea.

The use of force is probably the grayest area of international law but it is commonly recognised that a country is allowed to protect itself with proportionate force. You just need to take a look at the death toll to see that ain't happening. I guess it's just more evidence that you don't mess around with Israel.

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I don't think he's comparing the amount of rockets with the conflict in Ireland but more the 'no end in sight' idea.

The use of force is probably the grayest area of international law but it is commonly recognised that a country is allowed to protect itself with proportionate force. You just need to take a look at the death toll to see that ain't happening. I guess it's just more evidence that you don't mess around with Israel.

So Israel should just indiscriminately fire rockets back over the border?

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Guest Hobo
So Israel should just indiscriminately fire rockets back over the border?

The whole war in that region is rediculous, killing over false idols.

The only way in which I think this whole thing is working is this...

is it possible hamas kills civilians so they can't breed, no breeding means no babies, no babies means a lot less soldiers. Israel have possibly figured this out and are doing the same.?(

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The Gaza situation will never end.

I actually agree with you. There has been fighting in the Middle-East as long as there has been people there. It seems to be something that will never be sorted out or tackled in a sensible manner and other countries wading in hasn't helped other than to garner negative responses from their own residents. You can't please everybody.

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That's the problem with fighhing terrorists. Hamas deliberately target civillians, it's them that don't give a shit. Equally, they evidently don't give a shit if Palestinian civillians are killed. Hamas were repeatedly warned by Israel and Egypt that the continuation of rocketing at the border would lead to an Isreali backlash. They chose to ignore those warnings, so it is them who are accountable.

Confucius (or maybe it was Bobby Gillespie) say "One man's freedom fighter is another's terrorist".

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The Gaza situation will never end.

They'll never get out of this mess if all they do is continue to fling rockets back and forth at each other. Both sides are as bad as each other, to be honest. I have a certain degree of sympathy for the Palestinians but I find it increasingly hard to justify it with every violent response they make. Two wrongs do not make a right, especially when civilians end up losing their lives.

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So Israel should just indiscriminately fire rockets back over the border?

(okay, so i've finally got to a pc long enough to sit down and write a proper reply!)

No, Israel should ceasefire and be held accountable for crimes against international and international humanitarian law. They're a country bent on expansionist ideas in the middle east, and any act for 'peace' is completely phony. Since the creation of Israel the Palestinians have been squeezed into the West Bank and Gaza and have suffered at a biblical level. What, nearly 80% of people in Gaza live on less than $2 a day. What have we done? We took their land, freedom and dignity while supporting both their occupier and oppressor. After the pull out in 2005 Israel claimed it was for the greater good, for peace (!!!) in the middle east, but all they were really doing was moving troops from Gaza to the West Bank! I thought Israel were meant to be our beacon for democracy in the middle east? What a joke! The first fair elections in Palestine in 2006 brought Hamas to power which Israel failed to recognise and suppressed pretty much all forms of Palestinian nationalism. Hamas once elected moved more and more to middle; formed an alliance with Fatah (which was then broken up by us); attempted at various points to create a ceasefire with Israel. No wonder they turn to more extremist actions when you're dealing with such a brutal state like Israel.

Since the withdrawal from Gaza in 05 there has been 11 Israelis killed by supposed Hamas rockets compared to 1,290 Palestinians by the IDF. And it STILL continues! Where does it end? They bomb UN schools because they supposedly house Hamas rocket launchers; they drop 1 ton bombs on Hamas members houses. What about if you voted for Hamas in the free and fair elections? Does Israel have the right to take them out as well?

Hamas is not just a political party/terrorist group, it's also an idea - you can't really bomb an idea.

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g-massacro28.jpg

:down:

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Thats a pretty misguided statement. Israel originally occupied the Gaza Strip after winning the ground during the Six Day War in 1967, during which they were attacked by Egypt, Jordan and Syria who in turn were backed by a host of other Arab nations. So, Israel took the Gaza Strip as a result of a war in which they were attacked by their neighbours. In line with the Oslo Accords, Israel handed authoritative control over to Palestine in 1994 and after increasing terrorist attacks, withdrew from the area in 2005. So they gave the Gaza Strip back to Palestine, despite winning the ground in a war in which they were attacked. How is that expansionist?

Hamas are a terrorist organisation. They refuse to recognise Israels right to exist, and actively strive for the destruction of a Jewish state. I think its forgivable for Israel to object to their rule.

Why Hamas are continually painted as freedom-fighting innocents is a complete mystery to me. What do you mean by supposed Hamas rockets? Get a grip. The border is volleyed with rockets every day. Hamas were continually warned by both Israel and Egypt that their actions would have serious repercussions. They ignored these warnings. Its obviously a travesty that so many innocent people are losing their lives, but that is the nature of war. If you seriously believe Israel doesnt care at all about civilian casualties, then youre totally deluded. Take Nazar Rayan, who was killed after his eight-story house was bombed by Israel. Unfortunately, and unacceptably, many innocent members of his family also perished. Yet Israel warned Rayan of the imminent attacks and he chose to stay in his house with his family and be martyred. Its hard to avoid civilian casualties when your enemy has such a total disregard for civilian life as to deliberately hide in civilian areas in addition to directly targeting Israeli civilians. It is completely ridiculous to say only 11 Israelis have been killed. That is irrelevant. What if Israel did nothing? Rockets will continue to be smuggled in through Egypt; these weapons will get more and more sophisticated. Peace would never be achieved.

Israel should pay more attention to the humanitarian crisis and take care to avoid more civilliann casualties, but the general thrust of their action is understandable. The simple reality is that if Hamas disarmed there would be peace in the Gaza Strip. If Israel disarmed, theyd be massacred by those hell-bent on the destruction of a Jewish state. Fact.

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Guest Jake Wifebeater

I support the Palestinians 100%, Israel is a bogus state which was only granted to them to appease Western World guilt over the Holocaust. That's over 60 years they've been trading off the back of that.

That's all I feel like saying, I really can't be fucked getting into a debate about the whole thing because I know I'm right. Israel has committed every atrocity in the book and they think they can get away with it because nobody will hold them to account after what the Nazis did.

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So they gave the Gaza Strip back to Palestine, despite winning the ground in a war in which they were attacked. How is that expansionist?

What? Israel have shown constant Zionist colonial projects. They have consistently aimed to establish a 'greater' Israel through at times permanent, and at others covert, political, economic and military control over the Palestinian territories. It has been a consistent occupation. There is no infrastructure or development in Gaza. The civilians are a cheap source of labour for Israeli industry. There are also illegal Jewish territories within the occupied territories. In Gaza in 2005 there were only 8,000 Jewish settlers (compared to 1.4 million locals), yet they controlled 25% of the territory and as near as 40% of the water resources. Even when these 8,000 were finally removed in 2005, 12,000 Israeli's settled into the West Bank with the purpose to redraw Israeli borders. And even with the settlers withdrawn, Israeli soldiers still functioned in areas, controlling all the access points, incomings and outgoings into and out of Gaza. You can't simultaneously land grab and propose to make peace. It's simple not compatible. Israel will continue to fiddle with goings on in Palestinian politics, supporting/condemning certain factions which fit a certain criteria on a certain day. Israel supported Hamas through most of the 80's to weaken Fatah for bleedin' sake.

Coupled with continued suppression of any forms of Palestinian nationalism and not recognising the results from free and fair Palestinian elections, i'd say it was pretty obvious.

Hamas were continually warned by both Israel and Egypt that their actions would have serious repercussions. They ignored these warnings. Its obviously a travesty that so many innocent people are losing their lives, but that is the nature of war.

Israel's propaganda machine go on and on about how Palestinian nationalism is just short of antisemitism and that Hamas are religious fanatics. Yes, Hamas are a terrorist organisation in that they use violence or the threat of violence to achieve political objectives. But the bulk of the Palestinian people are as normal as us. They have no interest in the destruction of Israel, and all they want is some land that they can call Palestine in which they no longer have to fear the threat from Israel. The extent of this (unfortunately) is clear through Hamas. But the launching of Hamas rockets have produced minimal damage. Under international law Israel has the right to a proportionate response to Hamas attacks and this where your supposed "irrelevant" factor comes into play. 11 compared to 1,290 really isn't proportionate. But even if we disregard the whole number difference, the killing of civilians is just plain rotten.

Also, it's probably a good point to say that Israel broke the ceasefire in November of last year. The IDF took part in an illegal raid into Gaza territory to kill Hamas members. So...these are the actions from a state that apparently only has the defense of their population as their objective? Ok.

What do you mean by supposed Hamas rockets? Get a grip.

Reuters reported rumours that the rockets were fired by IDF on targets of limited destruction to give reasons for their 'coercive diplomacy'.

If you seriously believe Israel doesnt care at all about civilian casualties, then youre totally deluded

LOL!

It's not just the bombing in which Israel have shown unbridled savageness. Even after the 2005 accord, Israel kept the blockade in place halting all exports from Gaza. Nothing to sell, no jobs = 49.1% unemployment. Israel also limited food, fuel and medical trucks into Gaza. Israels indiscriminate bombing and 3 year blockade really shows how much they care about civilian casualties.

Oooh, also, the bombing of clearly marked UN hospitals? Under international law hospitals, schools etc..., are protected. The coordinates of both schools were given to the Israels well in advance to shelling. But hey, i guess there could have been dangerous Hamas militants hiding some massiveeee weapons in there, so best to bomb the shit out of it just in case.

Israel should pay more attention to the humanitarian crisis.

What, do you think the Israel's have just been failing to watch the telly or something? You don't think they know they've been causing this humanitarian crisis for it's entirety? Ayeeee, how about you 'get a grip'.

'Security' is such a subjective idea. Unfortunately Israel don't appear to be open to cooperation, or allow for the security of others. They don't kneel to concessions or compromise. Hamas have been ready to negotiate a ceasefire with Israel for 20 years but Israel remain locked into their narrow and undeniably realist vision.

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Hamas are a terrorist organisation. They refuse to recognise Israels right to exist, and actively strive for the destruction of a Jewish state. I think its forgivable for Israel to object to their rule.

I support the Palestinians. They had their land stolen from them. Of course they should bloody well refuse Israels right to exist. It's their land.

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