Aberdeen Venues - what the fuck is going on?

[rcalder82]

Not true, sorry.

Fair enough then - I will only answer personally then! I Will use bands who make an effort!

I also cant be ashamed to say I am a business and whilst I am prepared to take the losses sometimes I have to minimise risk.

I obviously wouldnt book someone that I thought were shit just to make up numbers!

[rcalder82]

And all coming from a guy who (as far as I know) was never in a band himself. It's great to get touring bands into places like the Tunnels, but generally the touring bands that are the size that play in the Tunnels need the local support bands to bring down the crowd.

Everyone starts out without a record deal, and it's tossers like him who stifle local talent from ever getting one.

Fuck - I knew I couldnt promote having not been in a band! Because all bands are good promoters and all non band people couldnt possibly put hard work into making gigs work!

For what its worth - I like your band and would have had no issues putting you on. As my message says - I will not neccessarily respond, not to be offended but that we will get in touch if there is a suitable show.

[rcalder82]

...but we'll spam fuck out of your myspace and post shitloads of massive images in your comments section.

damn - this as well. Not only can a person not in a band not promote gigs - they also should not advertise their shows either. I knew a single poster in One Up would be enough to get people along!

[rcalder82]

Dave's right, Ross has put on shows for some really good touring bands (Lightspeed Champion, Art Brut, Late of the Pier), and given some decent support slots at these gigs to local bands. It's just his treatment of local bands that pisses me off.

Appreciate your opinion - at least youve made the effort and I am aware I am owe you money!

[rcalder82]

I will stop taking this to heart now and stop responding for now anyway!

xxx

[Guest calumunderkills]

I will stop taking this to heart now and stop responding for now anyway!

xxx

To be fair, I think Ross has defended himself pretty well, and I take back what I said.

He's right, that if bands don't take anyone with them it is difficult to pay them. The only issue with that is, I try like an absolute bastard to get people to come to all our gigs, but it is nearly impossible for me to get more than 10 people to come to midweek gigs. My mates all work in the morning and just can't be arsed coming. The gigs I've put on at the weekend, I've always managed to get at least 100 folk down. Last week at the Lemon Tree we had nearly 200 folk, and the charity gig I did at Moshulu we pulled in about 260, but midweek, other than our first couple of gigs at the Tunnels, where we probably got about 50, we've really struggled to pull in a crowd.

It doesn't sound as if Ross is being lazy either - if he's annoying some people with spam on their myspace profiles, he must be making an effort to tell people about the gigs. It is difficult for these midweek gigs, because no matter how good a band is, the majority of the city probably won't have heard of them because they only listen to Radio 1 going to and from work, and never pay attention to the new music programmes etc where these types of bands will be aired and promoted.

All everyone can do is their best though, and if folk don't come down, then someone is going to lose money. Unfortunately, it usually ends up being the local support, though the way we treat not getting paid for a gig is that it is a free practice. It costs us 30 for a 2 hour practice at Captain Tom's. Or, we can play a gig at the Tunnels and get paid 30 or less, I know which I'd rather do.

Anyway, apologies to AGP for the misinformed rant, and well done for coming on here and explaining yourself.

[Chris]

damn - this as well. Not only can a person not in a band not promote gigs - they also should not advertise their shows either. I knew a single poster in One Up would be enough to get people along!

Get a grip. Of course you can advertise your gigs, but if you're spamming fuck out of people's mypsace accounts you're just going to piss people off. I blocked you from commenting on my account 'cause I was fucked off with seeing massive AGP adverts every time I viewed my profile, it was a ridiculous amount of spam you were posting.

Anyway that's the only criticism I'm throwing your way, don't know about the other stuff.

[Guest calumunderkills]

Get a grip. Of course you can advertise your gigs, but if you're spamming fuck out of people's mypsace accounts you're just going to piss people off. I blocked you from commenting on my account 'cause I was fucked off with seeing massive AGP adverts every time I viewed my profile, it was a ridiculous amount of spam you were posting.

Anyway that's the only criticism I'm throwing your way, don't know about the other stuff.

I know the big postings on myspace really annoy some people. I used to do it, but I've since worked out how to post much smaller posters on people's myspace comments, so hopefully they're there for people to see, but are not too intrusive! And only ever post it on people's profiles once!!

I suppose it is difficult for AGP because if they're putting on a few shows a week, they will have a lot of posters to post. You should maybe think about making up a poster which is just for myspace etc that has a gig listing for that week, and don't make it a massive poster!

[Guest idol_wild]

Personally, I don't believe that any act, local or otherwise, should have to run around and sell tickets to their friends. That is the job of the promoter - to promote the show.

The last gig I was referring to was a well constructed bill with a touring act and three locals (though one had just moved to Edinburgh) and it was a relatively well attended evening. All the locals were given tickets to sell but informed that they would receive payment regardless. Which was great. So I didn't really have the time to run around after friends to shift tickets - I just told them to come down and pay at the door. Which quite a number did. I'd estimate each local act brought in anywhere between 8-16 people each, out of a crowd of about 40-50. It's just a strange way to work by not even introducing yourself to the local acts, let alone not paying them. Even if there was an introduction and a wee apology to say the night didn't run the way it had been planned and money was lost so no payment was possible - it's a curtesy as much as anything.

And having dabbled in a bit of gig promotion myself, I'll say that I personally would never book a local band based purely on their ability to take a crowd down. I usually book them because I really like them and they suit the bill.

I guess it depends on motivational factors.

[Soda Jerk]

After 7 pages of reading, all I can suggest is MORE HOUSE SHOWS.

[Alkaline]

You can turn HTML comments off on myspace or set your comments to approval. Easiest way to get rid of unwanted spam. It's not rocket science.

[Old Gold]

I am frankly mesmerized by calumunderkills' U-turn of opinion regarding AGP.

I really like your band too. Can I have 15 quid?

[Guest calumunderkills]

I am frankly mesmerized by calumunderkills' U-turn of opinion regarding AGP.

I really like your band too. Can I have 15 quid?

Haha - I'm a bit bi-polar at times.... I took what everyone on here was saying as true and just thought the boy must be a dick treating the bands like shit etc. But I think his responses to everything show that he is actually trying, and doing his best.

Saying he liked my band had nothing to do with it and I'm not going to give you 15...

I will, however sell you a ticket for Dodgy @ Moshulu for 15...

[Andy Mulhern]

Personally, I don't believe that any act, local or otherwise, should have to run around and sell tickets to their friends. That is the job of the promoter - to promote the show.

I think this is total crap. God forbid any acts/band should try and make a success of a gig they are performing at!?

Iansound mentioned in another thread after a similar comment: "does that also mean that no band/act show go and promote their singles/albums because thats the record companies job" ?!?!?

every little helps, I think if bands/acts worked even half as hard as promoters all shows in aberdeen would be better off.

[Guest calumunderkills]

I think this is total crap. God forbid any acts/band should try and make a success of a gig they are performing at!?

Iansound mentioned in another thread after a similar comment: "does that also mean that no band/act show go and promote their singles/albums because thats the record companies job" ?!?!?

every little helps, I think if bands/acts worked even half as hard as promoters all shows in aberdeen would be better off.

Yeah, you've got to at least try to sell tickets!!

[Runcie]

I wouldn't really jump in and slate the fuck out of someone just because a few aberdeen-music kids say he's a dick. If you've never personally played a gig for AGP (as I've been told you haven't) then you're not really qualified to call Ross a lazy dick who hates the Aberdeen music scene. Nice one for pulling a U-Turn on your gormless, unsubstantiated rant though. Perhaps next time you'll take a step back and think about what you're saying beforehand. Ross is a good guy who gets some pretty great acts up here. If he can afford to pay local bands I have no doubt he will. It's all common sense though, just put yourself in his shoes and think for a bit.

[Guest calumunderkills]

I wouldn't really jump in and slate the fuck out of someone just because a few aberdeen-music kids say he's a dick. If you've never personally played a gig for AGP (as I've been told you haven't) then you're not really qualified to call Ross a lazy dick who hates the Aberdeen music scene. Nice one for pulling a U-Turn on your gormless, unsubstantiated rant though. Perhaps next time you'll take a step back and think about what you're saying beforehand. Ross is a good guy who gets some pretty great acts up here. If he can afford to pay local bands I have no doubt he will. It's all common sense though, just put yourself in his shoes and think for a bit.

Aye, like I said, fair play - I jumped in at the deepend a bit, which was stupid

However, I've sent him a message and apologised etc. It was also based on his myspace page, which I think he should probably alter slightly because it comes across as if he doesn't have time for local bands, but I can see that that was just a misinterpretation on my count.

Best of luck to him

[Guest idol_wild]

I think this is total crap. God forbid any acts/band should try and make a success of a gig they are performing at!?

Iansound mentioned in another thread after a similar comment: "does that also mean that no band/act show go and promote their singles/albums because thats the record companies job" ?!?!?

every little helps, I think if bands/acts worked even half as hard as promoters all shows in aberdeen would be better off.

I think you're misunderstanding my point, or at the very least taking it to an extreme. I'm not trying to argue that acts shouldn't do the basics - inform friends, put information on myspace about the gigs, stick some information on forums, even make their own wee poster. I just feel it's poor to expect them to go around chasing up friends to sell them tickets. In fact, I think it's a little degrading - it's something I don't appreciate having to do as a "musician" and something I would never even dream of asking an act I booked to do.

[Guest calumunderkills]

I think you're misunderstanding my point, or at the very least taking it to an extreme. I'm not trying to argue that acts shouldn't do the basics - inform friends, put information on myspace about the gigs, stick some information on forums, even make their own wee poster. I just feel it's poor to expect them to go around chasing up friends to sell them tickets. In fact, I think it's a little degrading - it's something I don't appreciate having to do as a "musician" and something I would never even dream of asking an act I booked to do.

I don't know - it does bug me having to do this all the time for gigs, but I think it's really difficult situation in Aberdeen.

If you take the example of AGP, who put on quite a lot of gigs. Ross only knows so many people, right? Well, when I text/email all my mates about our gigs, a few of them slag me off for spamming them, and, well quite frankly, quite a lot of them have never even been to see my band! If Ross tries his mates for every single gig, I'd dare say that they probably all stopped coming a while ago. So he's left with myspacing people and sticking up posters etc. which he is obviously doing (see above).

Personally, I think people are so disinterested in unsigned bands in Aberdeen, and little known signed bands (like the ones that AGP regularly put on), that it is very very difficult to play profitable gigs.

I lost a couple of hundred quid with the Indie-Cent Exposure gig last week. That was my attempt at advertising the gig on the radio to try and sell the Lemon Tree out. Result - the bands brought their fans, and very little (if any) came on the back of the advert - total waste of time and money. Now, I can't pay the bands for that gig, but I've explained the situation and they fully understand. From now on, I'll be going with the normal sources of promotion, and going nowhere near paid radio adverts again! And bands in the future will be paid!!

I am also working closely with the Lemon Tree and other people locally to increase the profile of the local scene, and hopefully generate a fair bit of interest from the population of Aberdeen and the surrounding area. I can't really say more than that at the moment, because a lot of stuff is still up in the air, but watch this space....

[RF Scott]

If people are complaining about not getting paid, they should probably make sure both parties have agreed a fee to be paid on the night, before the night. Get the money after you've played or before you leave. If you've agreed a fee, don't take bullshit excuses, and hassle the fuck out of them.

[Guest calumunderkills]

If people are complaining about not getting paid, they should probably make sure both parties have agreed a fee to be paid on the night, before the night. Get the money after you've played or before you leave. If you've agreed a fee, don't take bullshit excuses, and hassle the fuck out of them.

Well, that doesn't really work either - a promoter won't be in a position to agree a fee till he sees what door money comes in. They have to cover their costs first - they will more than likely have a fixed fee with the touring bands, which needs to be covered first. Promoters aren't generally doing gigs for the hell of it so need to operate at a profit of some sort. Most bands will play gigs and take what they get, so if you go around asking for fixed fees unless you're the kind of band which draws a guaranteed crowd (I can't think of any in Aberdeen that do that during the week), it is a bit of a lottery for the promoter.

If everyone operated on fixed fees, the bands would undoubtedly get lazy, and the promoter would have to do all the promotion all the time just to make sure he was covering his costs.

For smaller gigs like this to work, you need the promoter, and all the bands doing their best to bring a crowd!

[RF Scott]

Well, that doesn't really work either - a promoter won't be in a position to agree a fee till he sees what door money comes in. They have to cover their costs first - they will more than likely have a fixed fee with the touring bands, which needs to be covered first. Promoters aren't generally doing gigs for the hell of it so need to operate at a profit of some sort. Most bands will play gigs and take what they get, so if you go around asking for fixed fees unless you're the kind of band which draws a guaranteed crowd (I can't think of any in Aberdeen that do that during the week), it is a bit of a lottery for the promoter.

It does work. the VAST MAJORITY (by vast majority I mean all but one or two) of UK promoters I've been in contact with will discuss fees in advance. Support fees should be built into the costs of the gigs, it's this sort of attitude that gives promoters a license to not pay bands - if you're 'playing gigs and taking what you can get' (nobody that I know of does this by the way), then you obviously don't think very highly of yourself, your band are just added onto the bill as a favour or whatever, y'know, gie us a gig for a laugh aye? Bit of professionalism doesn't go amiss, really. Of course it is a lottery for the promoter, but if they've budgeted correctly, and no major hiccups occur, then they should be fine in the long run. It's pretty insane if you think that a promoter should take 'a profit of some sort' before paying support bands.

The standard support fee for bands is normally around 50, regardless of whether you're local or not. If you're on the support bill for a touring band playing at the Barfly, Cabaret Voltaire, etc, in Glasgow/Edinburgh for example, you will receive this regardless of how many numbers are through the door. It is built into the costs. If you're running a promotion company (that's company, not hobby), you should be prepared to take hits on some shows, and hopefully make your money back on others. Everyone else is going to get paid, so don't sell yourself short.

Obviously, this doesn't really apply in some cases - for example, certain DIY promoters who split all costs from the doors between bands, etc. In these cases, however, they've normally got a good reputation and work ethic, and will at the very least cover your costs even if they don't take in a lot of money at the door...

[Guest calumunderkills]

It does work. the VAST MAJORITY (by vast majority I mean all but one or two) of UK promoters I've been in contact with will discuss fees in advance. Support fees should be built into the costs of the gigs, it's this sort of attitude that gives promoters a license to not pay bands - if you're 'playing gigs and taking what you can get' (nobody that I know of does this by the way), then you obviously don't think very highly of yourself, your band are just added onto the bill as a favour or whatever, y'know, gie us a gig for a laugh aye? Bit of professionalism doesn't go amiss, really. Of course it is a lottery for the promoter, but if they've budgeted correctly, and no major hiccups occur, then they should be fine in the long run. It's pretty insane if you think that a promoter should take 'a profit of some sort' before paying support bands.

Obviously, this doesn't really apply in some cases - for example, certain DIY promoters who split all costs from the doors between bands, etc. In these cases, however, they've normally got a good reputation and work ethic, and will at the very least cover your costs even if they don't take in a lot of money at the door...

Well, we've never not been paid for any of the gigs we've done. The local unsigned shows we do it is always a split of the door money and no fee is fixed in advance.

The thing is, when you start out gigging, nobody really tells you how to hold yourself etc when booking gigs. It was only 2 years ago for us (less than that actually), and the first few gigs were at the Tunnels, and we were just told we'd get a share of the door money, which is how we then just thought it worked.

For support slots we've had, we've had varied deals. We had a few fixed fees from Jamesy at Moshulu, but they were always last minute slots so we didn't have time to promote the gigs (i.e. we got asked the night before or the same day etc), so we turned up, to find we're playing to like 10 people, and we get paid 50 for it. That's good financially, but I'd rather play to 50 people and get paid 10. We're not in this to make money, we're in it to be a good band, and play good shows, and have fun. Obviously we don't want to be losing out on money, but money has never been what it's about.

With Paul at Kef, we were basically given tickets to sell, and the amount we sold and the business of the night dictated how much money we got paid. I think we managed to shift about 25-30 tickets for the Dykeenies gig, and it was fairly busy anyway. I think I'm right in saying we got about 60-70 for that, which is probably fair enough.

The support slots we've done for Steven at Moshulu have always been good - we've had plenty of time to tell folk about them usually and have managed to get folk down. There's never been a fixed fee, but he's always seen us right money-wise. When we supported Hayseed Dixie, we didn't sell any tickets at all (because it was a last minute kind of gig), but it was very busy and he gave us about 100 for it. And the way it works at Dirty Hearts Club with Steven is that you get folk in for free on the guestlist and for every one that turns up on your guestlist, they give you a quid. This is pretty good cos it encourages folk to come down, and it is a fixed fee of sorts - you know exactly where you stand.

I don't agree that a fixed fee should be agreed for the support slots, unless it's really low, but then that's prejudicing the band if they go and bring a load of mates down. It should just be explained that your payment will depend on the busyness of the night etc. and give them tickets to sell. Another way is making sure the door staff asks each person who pays on the door which band they've mainly came to see, so that the support band gets credit for those paying on the door as well.

One thing that shouldn't happen is bands being told they'll get paid a fixed fee of x amount, then they don't get paid that amount for whatever reason - that will understandably piss of the band!

[Guest treader.]

It's pretty insane if you think that a promoter should take 'a profit of some sort' before paying support bands.

Not that insane if you ask DEENFESTTTTTTT.

[Monster Zero]

This idea that if a gig isn't busy it's all the support act's fault is ludicrous - do promoters turn around to the headline act and say 'sorry I totally misjudged how few people would want to see you and so I can't pay you'? - course not, that would be admitting their own fallibility. If they have taken on the resposibility of deciding a band is worth booking it's their responsibility how many people do or don't turn up.

A support band should try and drum up interest of course, but if their mates aren't interested in going it's not their fault.