KimyReizeger Posted August 11, 2008 Report Share Posted August 11, 2008 Saakashvili:The Russians want the whole of Georgia. The Russians need control over energy routes from central Asia and the Caspian Sea. In addition, they want to get rid of us, they want regime change. Every democratic movement in this neighbouring region must be got rid ofRegardless of Russia's next move, aren't Georgia pretty much asking for it by invading a break-away state with an inclination towards Moscow? Given the fact that the president can make statements like the above - in other words, recognise Russia's ambition 'they want to get rid of us' - it doesn't seem very wise to risk provoking volatile superpowers. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stripey Posted August 11, 2008 Report Share Posted August 11, 2008 I suspect the georgians expected nato or at least the US to back them up. Sadly it's pretty clear to everyone that russia is just going to pound them into submission. It's interesting to see how it's being reported by most news agencies in the US, i.e that Russia is the aggressor. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Neil Posted August 11, 2008 Report Share Posted August 11, 2008 Regardless of Russia's next move, aren't Georgia pretty much asking for it by invading a break-away state with an inclination towards Moscow? Given the fact that the president can make statements like the above - in other words, recognise Russia's ambition 'they want to get rid of us' - it doesn't seem very wise to risk provoking volatile superpowers.Russia probably can't believe their luck to be honest. They are now within 60-odd miles of getting to the BTC oil pipeline that runs though Georgia and is the West's only oil export route from the Caspian Sea that bypasses Russia. It's not a simple conflict by any means with plenty of blame on both parities, but as much as the US and fellow NATO allies may protest, I don't think any of them will risk getting involved. I suspect South Ossetia will just become part of Russia ultimately. I don't think Russia would risk trying to invade the whole of Georgia. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KimyReizeger Posted August 11, 2008 Author Report Share Posted August 11, 2008 As far as I can make out South Ossetia recognised itself as an independent state, but the ties with Russia are obviously strong and surely Georgia could have scripted the outcome. I can't imagine a 'peace-keeping' body entering war with Russia on the basis of Georgia's interest. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Neil Posted August 11, 2008 Report Share Posted August 11, 2008 As far as I can make out South Ossetia recognised itself as an independent state, but the ties with Russia are obviously strong and surely Georgia could have scripted the outcome. I can't imagine a 'peace-keeping' body entering war with Russia on the basis of Georgia's interest.Georgia has always refused to recognise South Ossetia as an independent state (ala Kosovo) and the peacekeepers there have been Russian soliders, not Georgian. The Russian government gave 80,000 of South Ossentian's citizens Russian passports not so long ago and they very much consider themselves more Russian than Georgian. I believe what triggered this conflict was Georgia "invading" South Ossentia a few days ago and killing a number of Russian peacekeepers. It's hard to tell what's true and what's not though at this stage. Either way, Russia are definitely making a play for taking the region. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stripey Posted August 11, 2008 Report Share Posted August 11, 2008 abkhazia is looking distinctly less georgian by the minute aswell. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KimyReizeger Posted August 11, 2008 Author Report Share Posted August 11, 2008 An analysis of reporting rhetoric:Russia brushes aside ceasefire calls after Georgia withdraws - the GuardianRussia Deploys Ships, Expands Georgia Bombing Blitz - Fox News Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KimyReizeger Posted August 11, 2008 Author Report Share Posted August 11, 2008 Either way, Russia are definitely making a play for taking the region.Given the seemingly pro-Russian nature of the place it's possibly the best outcome for them. Therefore, Georgia have created an unnecessary pile of corpses and given spark to more problems in other parts of the country."You can see, nobody wanted to help us. The UN and the Americans, they all sat there while we got bombed. It was the Russians who saved us. One more day and this whole place would no longer exist, and nor would any of us." - South Ossetian soldier on Georgian attacks Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris Posted August 11, 2008 Report Share Posted August 11, 2008 RUSSIA EVIL AFTER ALL - The Daily MashI was watching the Russian news channel over the weekend, their take on the situation is vastly different to the western news.The banner headline on Saturday was WAR IS ON, while a grinning blonde told everyone how despicable Georgia was. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frosty Jack Posted August 11, 2008 Report Share Posted August 11, 2008 The first casualty of war... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KimyReizeger Posted August 11, 2008 Author Report Share Posted August 11, 2008 RUSSIA EVIL AFTER ALL - The Daily Mash."Everyone assumed the Cold War was a clash of ideologies, but what we were really saying was 'these people are absolutely fucking dreadful'.lol..... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pogofish Posted August 11, 2008 Report Share Posted August 11, 2008 Meanwhile:Allegedly taken on Saturday.The Associated Press: Bush juggles sports, strife on Olympic whirlwindIt seems that Bush is still in China. Maybe this image should be the definitive one of his incompetance. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
framheim Posted August 11, 2008 Report Share Posted August 11, 2008 i dunno, i think the images of him dancing in new orleans sums up his 8 years in office more than anything ever will. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pogofish Posted August 11, 2008 Report Share Posted August 11, 2008 OK, maybe. There is certainly no shortage of candidates. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
all_his_engines Posted August 12, 2008 Report Share Posted August 12, 2008 Back on topic, I think the issue with Russia's retaliation is their utterly disproportionate use of force. Of course Georgia were the original aggressor, and blame must lie with them. But the Russians have been bombing TBILISI, for fuck's sake. Georgia's capital is nowhere near South Ossetia.Comparisons can be drawn between this and Israel bombing the shit out of Lebanon two years ago. Again, the initial transgression was made by the smaller nation, but the retaliatory attack (again on civilians) was ludicrously disproportionate. It seems as long as one of the Nuclear powers is rattling its sabre, most of the world is content to stay out of it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Neil Posted August 12, 2008 Report Share Posted August 12, 2008 But the Russians have been bombing TBILISI, for fuck's sake. Georgia's capital is nowhere near South Ossetia.They haven't actually bombed Tbilisi. They have hit military targets outside Tbilisi (I think there was a radar base and an airbase) but they haven't intentionally targeted any cities as far as I'm aware.Comparisons can be drawn between this and Israel bombing the shit out of Lebanon two years ago. Again, the initial transgression was made by the smaller nation, but the retaliatory attack (again on civilians) was ludicrously disproportionate. It seems as long as one of the Nuclear powers is rattling its sabre, most of the world is content to stay out of it.Comparisons can't be drawn with that conflict at all. That's absurd. The Russians aren't targeting civilians (at least not intentionally) as Israel arguably did in that conflict. Israel intentionally destroyed civilian infrastructure and buildings in that war and that was over a couple of their soldiers getting kidnapped (who of course they never saw alive again - their military action was a complete failure). It was completely disproportionate.However, this is a very different conflict. I agree Russia are using much more force than Georgia, but that is because they have a much more military might and they want to make sure Georgia are not going to have the military capability to try and strike South Ossetia again. The West (especially the UK and US) are making the most noise about this "disproportionate" action because they realise this conflict will probably end up unseating pro-NATO, Western-friendly, Saakashvili. Or at the very least, leave Georgia in a much weaker and insecure position (remember BP have oil and gas pipelines running through this country supplying the West). Saakashvili took a gamble with invading South Ossetia and it has back-fired spectacularly. It's his fault this conflict started and no-one can argue with that. Russia are pulling back now and will be able to dictate the terms of the cease-fire, as they still hold the moral high ground (at least in their eyes). Georgia have probably lost the territories of South Ossetia and Abkhazia for good now. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KimyReizeger Posted August 12, 2008 Author Report Share Posted August 12, 2008 The West (especially the UK and US) are making the most noise about this "disproportionate" action because they realise this conflict will probably end up unseating pro-NATO, Western-friendly, Saakashvili. .And because it's pretty much the only complaint anyone can actually make against Russia. As far as I've read, the Russians bombed a few villages outside of South Ossetia and some military / communications targets near Tbilisi. In comparison the Georgians were being accused of civilian butchery / 'genocide' the other day, (by Putin, I should add), and were obviously first to strike.Surely it's Saakashvili who has the questions to answer, and not this chap:http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/gallery/2008/aug/12/georgia.russia?picture=336483197 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KimyReizeger Posted August 12, 2008 Author Report Share Posted August 12, 2008 Ok, now the Georgian president is vowing to 'punish' Russia for attacks of the past few days. But get this:Over the last few days Georgia's main TV station has shown movies depicting small armies relying on courage and heroism to fight bigger forces - including the film 300, which shows a band of Spartans fighting a huge Persian invading army. So I guess this is how Georgia plan to deal with the baddies:(click) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris Posted August 13, 2008 Report Share Posted August 13, 2008 Saakashvili took a gamble with invading South Ossetia and it has back-fired spectacularly. It's his fault this conflict started and no-one can argue with that. You could argue that Russia goaded him into the action in South Ossetia by arming the Ossetians and encouraging them to launch the attacks over the last few weeks that prompted the action. The fact that russia had a thousand tanks and countless troops in the area certainly looks like they expected to need them. Or is it just a coincidence that they were on excercise nearby?Much the same way that the only reason there are Russian citizens there is because Russia happened to swan in and hand out passports to everyone, not because they're actually Russian.But yes it was a mistake for Georgia to do what it did in the first place.Has anyone else noticed that Saakashvili makes all his press conferences in front of a European flag btw? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frosty Jack Posted August 13, 2008 Report Share Posted August 13, 2008 Well, Georgia just beat Russia at the ladies beach volleyball.I was watching to see if any relevant parallels could be drawn between the current political situation between the two nations, and the, erm conflict between the, um, something about battle lines drawn in the sand... erm... the struggle for possession, er... it was important to compare the...*cough* Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lepeep Posted August 13, 2008 Report Share Posted August 13, 2008 Do they not realise that the spartans lose in the end? yeah....I mean, how long did the chippendales last for aswell? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Captain America Posted August 16, 2008 Report Share Posted August 16, 2008 On a lighter note. Lol at stupid Americans. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
all_his_engines Posted August 17, 2008 Report Share Posted August 17, 2008 They haven't actually bombed Tbilisi. They have hit military targets outside Tbilisi (I think there was a radar base and an airbase) but they haven't intentionally targeted any cities as far as I'm aware.That's still a much further encroachment into the country than was necessary. It's understandable that such an action could be seen as disproportionate.Comparisons can't be drawn with that conflict at all. That's absurd. The Russians aren't targeting civilians (at least not intentionally) as Israel arguably did in that conflict. Israel intentionally destroyed civilian infrastructure and buildings in that war and that was over a couple of their soldiers getting kidnapped (who of course they never saw alive again - their military action was a complete failure). It was completely disproportionate.However, this is a very different conflict. I agree Russia are using much more force than Georgia, but that is because they have a much more military might and they want to make sure Georgia are not going to have the military capability to try and strike South Ossetia again. The West (especially the UK and US) are making the most noise about this "disproportionate" action because they realise this conflict will probably end up unseating pro-NATO, Western-friendly, Saakashvili. Or at the very least, leave Georgia in a much weaker and insecure position (remember BP have oil and gas pipelines running through this country supplying the West). Saakashvili took a gamble with invading South Ossetia and it has back-fired spectacularly. It's his fault this conflict started and no-one can argue with that. Russia are pulling back now and will be able to dictate the terms of the cease-fire, as they still hold the moral high ground (at least in their eyes). Georgia have probably lost the territories of South Ossetia and Abkhazia for good now.Whilst I admit that it seems Russian have not been deliberately targeting civilians, greater military "might" is still not a good enough excuse for such an over-enthusiastic response. The main comparison I was attempting to draw between the two conflicts was the reluctance of the rest of the world to openly condemn said disproportionate use of force.Apart from Bush's demand for an end to the Russian bombing. But then he probably thinks they're still all members of the Communist Party. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cloud Posted August 17, 2008 Report Share Posted August 17, 2008 Much the same way that the only reason there are Russian citizens there is because Russia happened to swan in and hand out passports to everyone, not because they're actually Russian.It's a hugely controversial point to make that they're not Russians - the vast majority of Ossetians live in Russia, the South-Ossetians want to be part of Russia and they definitely don't want to be part of Georgia. So while they're not ethnically Russian - they would likely be far better off as part of North Ossetia than the current status quo.The sensible thing in all of this would be to actually hand South Ossetia over to the Russians in exchange for a decent payment. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KimyReizeger Posted August 18, 2008 Author Report Share Posted August 18, 2008 The sensible thing in all of this would be to actually hand South Ossetia over to the Russians in exchange for a decent payment.I can't see the Russians paying out for what they have pretty much already gained, but I agree that if a convincing majority of South Ossetians want to be part of Russia, then let them. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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