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A complicated subject for sure but one that we as aberdonians have a unique perspective on. Anyhoo, Oil and Gas UK have just released a report suggesting that the Treasury will benefit from 6 billion extra in tax from Oil this year, the overall amount is double what they earned in tax from Oil in 2007 yet Labour are still sticking to the line that there will be no 'windfall' from rising oil prices.

Battle Over 6bn Oil Bonanza (from The Herald )

With the country plummetting into recession and the main cause(as far as i can see) being rampant oil prices then surely this money should be used to give relief to the public as they face the highest standard of living rises since the 70's, primarily through kerrazy petrol prices.

The other issue raised by this story is of course the share of money that Scotland should receive for Oil which is from our territory. The focus on Glasgow East this month shows just how poor some parts of Scotland are despite alledgedly benefitting so much from the Union and the Barnett formula(a concept which is a whole other discussion and is disputed by many neutral economists). Should Scotland be allowed to benefit from it's own resources? I think the idea of an oil trust fund is a wholly sensible one and Scotland would be a much healthier country both literally and economically if we had control of our own resources in the current economic climate.

So, this could be an interesting discussion or the worst thread ever but let's hear your thoughts.

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What I don't understand is why they can't change the VAT rules for fuel. They say it takes money out of the budget but as VAT is charged at a percentage then the rising fuel costs is adding additional money into the budget that wasn't there before. Additionally VAT is calculated on the cost of fuel + fuel duty not the fuel itself, so you pay tax on the tax.

Sorting out the VAT would be a good way to ease pressure on motorists by stabalising fuel prices without harming public spending.

Unfortunately this means I now agree with the conservatives about something...

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What I don't understand is why they can't change the VAT rules for fuel. They say it takes money out of the budget but as VAT is charged at a percentage then the rising fuel costs is adding additional money into the budget that wasn't there before. Additionally VAT is calculated on the cost of fuel + fuel duty not the fuel itself, so you pay tax on the tax.

Sorting out the VAT would be a good way to ease pressure on motorists by stabalising fuel prices without harming public spending.

Unfortunately this means I now agree with the conservatives about something...

hehe, nothing wrong with agreeing with the tories on this. i think most of the parties will agree that this needs sorted(except for labour for some reason). labour seriously need to get a grip of themselves and remember what they're meant to stand for. i know the economy is precarious right now but surely doing nothing is worse than doing something to help the people.

i don't even drive and i hate cars but even i can see that motorists are getting a hammering just now, plus our groceries are costing a fortune.

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I definitely agree with the oil fund idea and it seems ironic to me that it's the nationalists pushing for it. It's disgusting that an oil rich region of the UK has some of the worst poverty in western europe.

I won't mention the 'I' word.

And yes, they should be slashing tax and duty on fuel. There should be a formula to deal with inflation in oil prices to periodically adjust this. While it might be a bonus in some ways to have a massive tax windfall to cover deficits, it's not a lot of use if the economy subsequently tanks and public sector spending rises as a result.

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I definitely agree with the oil fund idea and it seems ironic to me that it's the nationalists pushing for it. It's disgusting that an oil rich region of the UK has some of the worst poverty in western europe.

I won't mention the 'I' word.

And yes, they should be slashing tax and duty on fuel. There should be a formula to deal with inflation in oil prices to periodically adjust this. While it might be a bonus in some ways to have a massive tax windfall to cover deficits, it's not a lot of use if the economy subsequently tanks and public sector spending rises as a result.

why's it ironic? surely it's the whole point of the nationalists existence.

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why's it ironic? surely it's the whole point of the nationalists existence.

It hardly aids their seperatist agenda to get a good deal for Scotland within the union, or so says conventional wisdom, anyway. I wish i hadn't mentioned that 'i' word either now. *le sigh*

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It hardly aids their seperatist agenda to get a good deal for Scotland within the union, or so says conventional wisdom, anyway. I wish i hadn't mentioned that 'i' word either now. *le sigh*

i see your point but i think that if they secure an oil fund while still part of the union then it would aid the case for independence greatly. that's why it'll never happen.

it would be an acknowledgment that scotland should have some control over it's own resources and that it would be better off in this position, it would show that the nationalists have been right all along and that scotland can survive and indeed prosper as an independent country.

the 'i' word goes hand in hand when discussing oil i'm afraid.

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Anyone who has read about the frightening nature of Peak Oil, will realise that any money made from Oil should be forcibly invested into non-carboniferous energy development schemes immediately.

Peak oil - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Not only because of Climate Change, crucial as that is, but also if we plan to maintain the Western worlds lifestyle, (and that is such that the rest of the world aspires to that level of development)unless we can reach a consensus that we could cope with a technology level that is Edwardian at best; at worst, take your pick from extinction upwards.

To which add the fact that each percentile point in Economic growth causes exponential growth in carbon emissions, Monbiot.com What Is Progress?

and the talk of what to do with an oil price windfall looks like the distraction it is.

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Guest Neutral

Shit is going to hit the fan unless we convert to hydrogen/compressed air powered by windfarms, hydro and solar. Generate electricity using wind farms, hydro and use it to extract hydrogen and power air compressors

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Hydrogen requires too much electricity to create, it's not the answer just another dodge by the car companies.

Also to convert to completely renewable energy sources would require construction on a never seen before scale in this country.

It could happen but people would have to get used to the idea of not having a countryside anymore.

Heavyweight physics prof weighs into climate/energy scrap | The Register

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Guest Neutral
Hydrogen requires too much electricity to create, it's not the answer just another dodge by the car companies.

Also to convert to completely renewable energy sources would require construction on a never seen before scale in this country.

It could happen but people would have to get used to the idea of not having a countryside anymore.

Heavyweight physics prof weighs into climate/energy scrap | The Register

Hydrogen requires a lot of electric to harvest just now but as technology improves and becomes more efficient - solar panels which produce more energy, bacteria which take in organic waste and shit out hydrogen. As technology advances larger yields can be gained from less area.

I think hydrogen is one of the ways forward however at the moment it is very inefficient, more investment can make it viable however

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Fuck cars. Prices need to come down for homeowners in relation to gas and electricity supplies. Food is also ridiculously expensive at the moment. I don't give a rats ass if the majority have to walk/cycle 15 minutes to work rather than take a 5 minute trip in the car. Cars are a luxury, warmth and food aren't they are a necessity.

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Fuck cars. Prices need to come down for homeowners in relation to gas and electricity supplies. Food is also ridiculously expensive at the moment. I don't give a rats ass if the majority have to walk/cycle 15 minutes to work rather than take a 5 minute trip in the car. Cars are a luxury, warmth and food aren't they are a necessity.

aye but food has gone up because of the cost of oil(amongst other reasons) and it has an effect on everything else too. i also couldn't give a shit about cars but they're a necessity for transporting goods.

Gas and electricity prices are mental just now. Our direct debit went up even though we're in credit because our current direct debit is too high compared to how much energy we use. Power companies are taking the piss.

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aye but food has gone up because of the cost of oil(amongst other reasons) and it has an effect on everything else too. i also couldn't give a shit about cars but they're a necessity for transporting goods.

Gas and electricity prices are mental just now. Our direct debit went up even though we're in credit because our current direct debit is too high compared to how much energy we use. Power companies are taking the piss.

If people weren't using so much of it in senseless trips in cars the price would be lower due to there being more of it available and food wouldn't be as expensive.

Power Companies really are taking the piss. I think they'd have the shits put right up them if everyone refused to pay the bills.

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Power Companies really are taking the piss. I think they'd have the shits put right up them if everyone refused to pay the bills.

They are only hiking their prices up because gas and oil prices have increased on the open market.

People are getting worked up over the end result of this problem (higher food, petrol and power prices) but aren't asking the basic question of why oil prices are so high in the first place. Some believe it is a simple case of demand for oil from developing countries (e.g. China, India) outstripping supply, but it isn't straightforward as that. In fact, the prices may be as high as they are simply because of financial speculation and it is issues like this that the governments of the developed world need to start getting a grip on if they want to see oil prices falling again. Of course the oil companies would never want to see this happen - they are the ones really making the most money out of this situation.

Goldman Sachs and Morgan Stanley today are the two leading energy trading firms in the United States. Citigroup and JP Morgan Chase are major players and fund numerous hedge funds as well who speculate.

In June 2006, oil traded in futures markets at some $60 a barrel and the Senate investigation estimated that some $25 of that was due to pure financial speculation. One analyst estimated in August 2005 that US oil inventory levels suggested WTI crude prices should be around $25 a barrel, and not $60.

That would mean today that at least $50 to $60 or more of todays $115 a barrel price is due to pure hedge fund and financial institution speculation. However, given the unchanged equilibrium in global oil supply and demand over recent months amid the explosive rise in oil futures prices traded on Nymex and ICE exchanges in New York and London it is more likely that as much as 60% of the today oil price is pure speculation. No one knows officially except the tiny handful of energy trading banks in New York and London and they certainly arent talking.

By purchasing large numbers of futures contracts, and thereby pushing up futures prices to even higher levels than current prices, speculators have provided a financial incentive for oil companies to buy even more oil and place it in storage. A refiner will purchase extra oil today, even if it costs $115 per barrel, if the futures price is even higher.

As a result, over the past two years crude oil inventories have been steadily growing, resulting in US crude oil inventories that are now higher than at any time in the previous eight years. The large influx of speculative investment into oil futures has led to a situation where we have both high supplies of crude oil and high crude oil prices.

Compelling evidence also suggests that the oft-cited geopolitical, economic, and natural factors do not explain the recent rise in energy prices can be seen in the actual data on crude oil supply and demand. Although demand has significantly increased over the past few years, so have supplies.

Over the past couple of years global crude oil production has increased along with the increases in demand; in fact, during this period global supplies have exceeded demand, according to the US Department of Energy. The US Department of Energys Energy Information Administration (EIA) recently forecast that in the next few years global surplus production capacity will continue to grow to between 3 and 5 million barrels per day by 2010, thereby "substantially thickening the surplus capacity cushion."

Source: Perhaps 60% of todays oil price is pure speculation

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They are only hiking their prices up because gas and oil prices have increased on the open market.

People are getting worked up over the end result of this problem (higher food, petrol and power prices) but aren't asking the basic question of why oil prices are so high in the first place. Some believe it is a simple case of demand for oil from developing countries (e.g. China, India) outstripping supply, but it isn't straightforward as that. In fact, the prices may be as high as they are simply because of financial speculation and it is issues like this that the governments of the developed world need to start getting a grip on if they want to see oil prices falling again. Of course the oil companies would never want to see this happen - they are the ones really making the most money out of this situation.

Source: Perhaps 60% of todays oil price is pure speculation

Judging my posts i would've thought that it was obvious that i understood that.

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What's pissed me off about the highest oil price ever is the fact that my oil company paid the lowest bonus ever to us all last year and this year we never got one at all. (The shareholders did very well though I might add.)

Thanks CNR.... and thanks Petrofac. You really made us feel valued.

Lets hope the forthcoming shutdown doesn't drag on too long eh? :up:

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The 'heavyweight physics prof' just shows the vast effort that needs to be invested if we aren't all to be talking about lute strynges via some news-sheet in 20 years time. Of course the obvious answer is to have vast solar power stations in orbit, operating at an efficiency that is impossible on the ground, and beaming the power down to earth via microwave transmitters. All of which technology exists in the here and now, without waiting for thorium tech to be invented (awesome as it sounds), at a colossal price. However this needs to be started before Peak Oil conditions kick in, as the resources needed will be astronomical.

Whenever I say this people develop a weird glazed look, or laugh hysterically, but solar farming would easily work in the Sahara, as well as southern Europe. Lateral thinking is needed on this matter.

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The 'heavyweight physics prof' just shows the vast effort that needs to be invested if we aren't all to be talking about lute strynges via some news-sheet in 20 years time. Of course the obvious answer is to have vast solar power stations in orbit, operating at an efficiency that is impossible on the ground, and beaming the power down to earth via microwave transmitters. All of which technology exists in the here and now, without waiting for thorium tech to be invented (awesome as it sounds), at a colossal price. However this needs to be started before Peak Oil conditions kick in, as the resources needed will be astronomical.

Whenever I say this people develop a weird glazed look, or laugh hysterically, but solar farming would easily work in the Sahara, as well as southern Europe. Lateral thinking is needed on this matter.

For that matter, we should be up on the moon, getting that Helium-3! It's totally worth it, the energy contained in one kilogram could run NYC for a year! Unfortunately, we seem to have lost our ambition in that area at some point during the cold war. Hopefully, the chinese will pick up the ball!

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The 'heavyweight physics prof' just shows the vast effort that needs to be invested if we aren't all to be talking about lute strynges via some news-sheet in 20 years time. Of course the obvious answer is to have vast solar power stations in orbit, operating at an efficiency that is impossible on the ground, and beaming the power down to earth via microwave transmitters. All of which technology exists in the here and now, without waiting for thorium tech to be invented (awesome as it sounds), at a colossal price. However this needs to be started before Peak Oil conditions kick in, as the resources needed will be astronomical.

Whenever I say this people develop a weird glazed look, or laugh hysterically, but solar farming would easily work in the Sahara, as well as southern Europe. Lateral thinking is needed on this matter.

I bought that New Scientist as well. Must say I'd forgotten about that option but thought it was quite amazing when I read about it. Quite Buck Rodgers.

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Countries who have large oil reserves seem to be either really rich or fucked over.

IMHO, Scotland has been fucked over. As for Iraq, in reality it should be one of the richest countries on earth...

Credit crunch? *cringes* Yes, the economy isn't great but the media doesn't help with it's shit stirring.

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What's pissed me off about the highest oil price ever is the fact that my oil company paid the lowest bonus ever to us all last year and this year we never got one at all. (The shareholders did very well though I might add.)

Thanks CNR.... and thanks Petrofac. You really made us feel valued.

Lets hope the forthcoming shutdown doesn't drag on too long eh? :up:

Petrofac? hehe. I got a 1% bonus (so did the rest of IT). I think the only section of the company with higher bonuses was Plant Asset Management. I know they got higher bonuses because they performed really well (and the managers refused to give them lower bonuses).

As for oil. I point my finger at the government as far as Britain is concerned. The price of oil you get at a petrol station is made up of around 70% tax. It's ludicrous.

Did anyone watch that episode of dispatches that was on recently about the price of food?

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For that matter, we should be up on the moon, getting that Helium-3! It's totally worth it, the energy contained in one kilogram could run NYC for a year! Unfortunately, we seem to have lost our ambition in that area at some point during the cold war. Hopefully, the chinese will pick up the ball!

NASA are currently in the planning stages for a manned mission to mars. Not a lot of people know that!

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