Record Stores face extinction

[Panda Strong]

...imagine having to watch hundreds of people evey day buying the same AC/DC album, over and over again, knowing that you hate AC/DC....it drives you mental (repeat with Iron Maiden, Metallica, and Pantera).

Mono got over that factor by deciding to not stock crap music. Works for them!

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You know what else is killing record stores? Amazon Marketplace! Seriously, that place is heaven.

[Alkaline]

Surely record shops are facing extinction because people are downloading mp3s instead of going into town to buy cds.

So it's not completely off topic.

I can't imagine record shops just ceasing to be, i reckon they will always exist in big towns. In small towns or towns with no strong music scene indie shops will probably die though.

It's all progress.

I agree totally, i think until someone comes up with a better/cheaper physical media CD will always have a place in the mainstream marketplace.

I will always buy CDs over mp3. I prefer them. I rip all my music to a hard drive for convenience streaming-wise but i will always prefer listening to a CD in my living room if i want to listen to something specific. I didn't spend the money i spent on Audio equipment to have harsh clipped fuzzy noise annoying my hearing when i have a superior alternative that i actually enjoy listening to.

[Alkaline]

You know what else is killing record stores? Amazon Marketplace! Seriously, that place is heaven.

That's where i buy most of my CDs from to be honest. I can't argue with a CD i want sent to me from the States for less 6, whereas i could easily have to spend 10 for the same thing in a local music store. I don't mind waiting a week either.

I do still buy the occasional CD in One-Up, the only Music Store i'll shop in these days now that Fopp has gone, or at work with discount. But i haven't bought a CD from HMV or Virgin in more than a couple of years.

[Lemonade]

I agree totally, i think until someone comes up with a better/cheaper physical media CD will always have a place in the mainstream marketplace.

.

I've got just the thing!

[Panda Strong]

Yep. Marketplace often has things that you can't find in your local record shop, and things i thought i'd never get for cheap ever again!

That fact shops still charge +10 for a cd is pretty laughable.

Edit; but don't get me wrong, i love buying music. But when there are cheaper avenues...

[Alkaline]

I've got just the thing!

Haha, better but not cheaper.

[Stripey]

Apologies, as i said it was 1am and i actually meant encoded. Obviously the difference in programs you use and how quick your computer is affect the overall outcome of your encode.

Speed of the computer has nothing to do with the quality of the encoded output.

I can tell the difference between a 192kbps and 256kbps (or lower) compressed audio track and a CD. 320kbps would depend on each individual basis. It's a tone thing for me. You can't tell me what my ears can and can't hear no matter how much you'd like to.

Of course you can tell the difference between a low bitrate mp3 and a CD, but we're talking about 320kbps here, and you will not be able to tell the difference, it's not a matter of subjectivity it's a matter of scientific/mathematic reality and the proven tolerances of human hearing.

Actually any mp3 or lossy codec is a digitally clipped signal so you're wrong, digital clipping is something that is very important in digital sampling. I'm surprised you don't understand that...

No it isn't, you're completely wrong. Clipping occurs when the signal exceeds the headroom of the equipment/format being used, i.e when the meter "goes into the red", it has nothing to do with lossy encoding and nothing to do with this conversation.

If you want a clue go and read about the nyquist theory, dithering and aliasing in digital sampling before you start spouting such nonsense.

[Alkaline]

Speed of the computer has nothing to do with the quality of the encoded output.

Wrong.

Of course you can tell the difference between a low bitrate mp3 and a CD, but we're talking about 320kbps here, and you will not be able to tell the difference, it's not a matter of subjectivity it's a matter of scientific/mathematic reality and the proven tolerances of human hearing.

So was i if you read my statement properly. Are you ignoring the bodies perception of non-audible sounds then entirely?

No it isn't, you're completely wrong. Clipping occurs when the signal exceeds the headroom of the equipment/format being used, i.e when the meter "goes into the red", it has nothing to do with lossy encoding and nothing to do with this conversation.

If you want a clue go and read about the nyquist theory, dithering and aliasing in digital sampling before you start spouting such nonsense.

You're right and wrong. I have read all about Nyquist-Shannon Sampling Theorum, and clipping occurs more regularly on poorly encoded and lower bitrate media than it does on higher bitrate media like CD, for example.

[Stichman]

I think I'll prefer CDs for the forseeable future because...

- I like to listen to music in the car, which has a CD player. I've got one of those wee gadgets that links your ipod to a radio frequency, but the sound quality is minging compared to a good ol' CD. This is especially noticeable when playing the Best of Paul Simon.

- I like shopping for CDs; it gets me out the house, is a great way of wasting excess time and if it's a decent record store then you can talk to the staff - something which has led to me to all sorts of new bands and genres that I probably wouldn't have 'discovered' otherwise

- I like real life. I like things. I like people and interacting with them. I don't like spending hours in my sweaty, cesspit of a bedroom peering at a flickering computer screen.

- I'm a technological retard. I don't know even know what a bitrate is, and I don't think I should have to know the intricacies of technological jargon to enjoy my music to a decent level. With a CD, you just hump it into the player. Easy money.

Downloads are good in that the distribution of music from unsigned bands is limitless, making it possible to release your pishy tunes to a huuuuge audience. Also, I like how you can - at the touch of a button - source rare releases from your most favourite of bands. BUT, CDs are most definetely the medium for me.

[Lemonade]

- I like to listen to music in the car, which has a CD player. I've got one of those wee gadgets that links your ipod to a radio frequency, but the sound quality is minging compared to a good ol' CD. This is especially noticeable when playing the Best of Paul Simon.

You know, it may not be the iPod that's making that sound shit.

[Chris]

Wrong.

Fancy explaining then?

[Guest Steven Dedalus]

Mono got over that factor by deciding to not stock crap music. Works for them!

.

If only I'd had that luxury.... (I didn't order the stock, sadly)

But you actually have a point here. I think the way ahead for music stores is intelligent merchandising. If you have a shop, and you're very canny about who is buying music, you can - theoretically - tailor your stock to your market. This means that if you have a population that is into stuff like Spoon, Broken Social Scene, etc, then only stock that stuff, keep it low key, and cultivate a relationship with your customers so that they can trust you. If you budget accordingly, then you can survive...in principle.

My model of thinking for this is music promotion. Generally, a canny promoter can budget in such a way that then can work out how many poeple will come to a gig, how much they can afford to spend when booking, how much promotion to do and how t come away with a profit. Obviously, it's not an exact science, but I always admired the way the Interesting Music guys were able to book 'niche' acts, and bring them to a receptive aucience, and cultivate that relationship to a point where you come to trust the judgement of the promoter, and will probably go to a show promoted by those guys.

To bring it back to my analogy, if you like a particular band, and you know my shop stocks this kind of stuff, and is knowledgeable and excited about it to be trusted, then you will buy stuff on my reccomendation, cos you now that I like the same stuff as you, and know what you like...

...which is kind of what a lot of on-line retailers do, I guess. Ho hum.

It's all a pipe-dream, I suppose, but I do think that by specialising, record stores have a future.

[Alkaline]

Fancy explaining then?

You're only at the mercy of the equipment you use in any circumstances.

[Chris]

You're only at the mercy of the equipment you use in any circumstances.

That's not an explanation, it's just a vague non-technical statement.

The speed of your computer may affect how long the encode takes, but you're still just applying a codec. The operation itself should work the same on a slow computer as it does on a fast one and end users would see no difference in the results.

[Alkaline]

That's not an explanation, it's just a vague non-technical statement.

The speed of your computer may affect how long the encode takes, but you're still just applying a codec. The operation itself should work the same on a slow computer as it does on a fast one and end users would see no difference in the results.

I guess it depends on a number of variables as well as processing speed/power, error correction and all manner of things like memory architecture, DACs and ADCs. In which case the better the machine you have the truer the representation of the initial article. Is that better?

[Chris]

I guess it depends on a number of variables as well as processing speed/power, error correction and all manner of things like memory architecture, DACs and ADCs. In which case the better the machine you have the truer the representation of the initial article. Is that better?

Better, but I still don't think you're right. The power of even the most basic 400 laptop tehse days is more than enough to encode an MP3 without straining the system resources. I don't think any system from the last few years would complete the operation with enough differences in the result to actually be heard by anyone.

The biggest contributing factors are going to be the codec itself and the program that uses it, not the computer running the conversion.

[Lemonade]

This thread is on the verge of being moved to the Gaming and Technology forum.

[Neil]

This thread is on the verge of being moved to the Gaming and Technology forum.

Agreed and I'm to blame as much as anyone else. Let's try and get this back on topic please everyone. The ins and outs of MP3 encoding would be best covered in a new thread in the Gaming and Technology forum.

[Alkaline]

The biggest contributing factors are going to be the codec itself and the program that uses it, not the computer running the conversion.

True, the codec itself and the conversion program are the biggest factors but if there is a weaker element in the chain, i.e a poor quality CD deck (which lets face it the ones used in computers aren't actually very good) with lots of read errors then you aren't going to get a very well encoded or "true" finished product.

I can tell the difference between a good and bad CD deck and a good and bad Audio DAC on an amp (when using a transport deck) and an internal CD borne DAC using different set-ups and if i can then i'm sure a computer will be even better.

[Alkaline]

Agreed and I'm to blame as much as anyone else. Let's try and get this back on topic please everyone. The ins and outs of MP3 encoding would be best covered in a new thread in the Gaming and Technology forum.

Awww don't be such a killjoy i'm enjoying talking about this especially with Stripey and Chris

It's all relative as to my basis on not buying downloaded media and why i believe that CD is still a more than valid media so it's not too far off topic and it's been maintained at a fairly respectable manner.

[Chris]

Awww don't be such a killjoy i'm enjoying talking about this especially with Stripey and Chris

I only got involved because I thought the remark about processor speed was inaccurate or at least over-stated. I think we've pretty much reached agreement on that now and I don't really have a conflicting opinion on CD drives and the optics within (I'll bow to your superior knowledge to me on that one) so I'm about done with this topic now.

[Jeanette]

Yes, but I'm sure for many of us we have no idea what you're speaking about! I'm first in that queue and it's not making the thread as enjoyable to read anymore...

[Alkaline]

Yes, but I'm sure for many of us we have no idea what you're speaking about! I'm first in that queue and it's not making the thread as enjoyable to read anymore...

Well i'm not going to stop talking about something just because you don't understand it. Sorry.

[Soda Jerk]

Utterly misinformed rubbish. 320kbps MP3 properly encoded will be indistinguishable to anyones ears from a 16bit 44khz CD. Anyway, if you really worry about it, lossless encoding like FLAC or even straight up WAV downloads are becoming increasingly common.

Again, this is just complete nonsense. Digital distribution is a huge step forward, it's also a huge democratising force in that anyone now can cut out the entire chain of middle-men in the tradional cd/vinyl based industry paradigm and sell direct to their customers.

Yep, times sure change don't they.

When I buy music, I don't want to pay for gimmicky "value adding" packaging, or fill my house up with bits of perishable, evironmentally questionable plastic, letalone pay a premium for a product where the price reflects a chain of money grubbing middle men rather than its actual value.

The browsing randomly and buying things on a whim experience is even richer when you buy music online, given that you can easily listen to the stuff beforehand, find out anything you want about the band/artists and so on with absolute ease.

I think the great thing about all this is that it's eating away at the false perception of the worth of music that the record industry over the last 40 years or so has deliberately fostered. The new paradigm that is emerging is good for the consumer, good for the artists, and good for music itself.

Yes, my opinions on the matter are complete "nonsense" because you don't agree with them. That's some fine debating right there. We might as well just have rolled up our sleeves and started punching each other if we were to keep it at this level of integrity.

You describe music as a physical posession 'perishable' in an argument in favor of the MP3?! Baffling. A stereo holding a CD in it's tray is much more secure than a computer where a small virus can corrupt the file, or even accidental deletion can rid of it forever. An iPod is about as reliable as a chocolate fireguard. I've had two mp3 players crash and die without recovery, losing hundreds of music files. I've never had a stereo chew up my CD or just refuse to give it back. Arguing that MP3's are less volatile than music as a physical possession is just so wrong it even hurts a little.

Besides, where's the collector aspect of it? Imagine if they decided to make all books and comics digital only? It would be chaos. The whole experience of buying and trading music, lending music to your friends goes out the window, and it just becomes so disposable. With the ease of downloading ANYTHING comes fickle listeners. I pay alot more attention to music I've paid for, because I've gone to the effort of getting it, and I know alot of people are the same. Downloads are so easily obtainable that no one really lets records grown on them anymore (I'm guilty of this myself), and music fads are coming and going faster than ever.

Also, Hearing a band online first is completely different to buying on a whim without hearing them, and comparing the two makes no sense whatsoever. I am definitely not motivated to pay for files I may not like. At least with a record or CD, I'm likely to pay more attention to it, and if I really don't like it, I can sell it on or most likely trade it with someone for something else.

As for quality, I have a fair share of stuff on my MP3 player ripped at 320kbps, and when listening through GOOD headphones at high volumes, I can tell the difference. You can not argue that it isn't a step backwards as far as audio technology is concerned, and I shouldn't have to listen to it at a low volume just to be able to hear it without having it fizz and crackle.

[Jeanette]

Well i'm not going to stop talking about something just because you don't understand it. Sorry.

I'm not asking you to. But the whole point of this was to discuss why people thought independent music shops etc were on the general go slow with sales.

Not the ins and outs of the difference between mp3s and cds and whatever other technological nonsense you've been speaking about.

Hence the suggestion further up that it be moved. The whole point of the thread has been lost slightly with the constant handbags over who knows what about whatever it is you're speaking about.