Record Stores face extinction

[Stripey]

Wrong.

So was i if you read my statement properly. Are you ignoring the bodies perception of non-audible sounds then entirely?

You're right and wrong. I have read all about Nyquist-Shannon Sampling Theorum, and clipping occurs more regularly on poorly encoded and lower bitrate media than it does on higher bitrate media like CD, for example.

sorry but you have no idea what you're talking about, as chris has pointed out the speed of your computer has no bearing atall on the quality of the encode output, just the length of time it takes to complete.

A/D Converters don't come into it, because when you rip a CD in a computer and encode it to mp3 it's all happening in the digital domain, and if you rip at the slowest possible speed from a well manufactured CD, you're very very unlikely to encounter any errors.

You're totally wrong about clipping, this is something which is controlled by the studio when they produce the master recordings. If you're CD doesn't clip, when you encode it to MP3 it's not going to clip either. You're confusing clipping with dithering and aliasing, which is dependant on samplerates, and that is why you notice washy highs and what *sounds like* distortion as you decrease the bitrate/samplerate of an mp3. It's not clipping.

For the purposes of this discussion, most people who buy and listen to music do not have outrageously expensive hifi setups with professional quality A/D converters, in acoustically treated rooms. That's a niche market, which is full of a lot of chinstroking nonsense perpetuated by people who claim to be able to hear a gnat fart at 200 yards.

320kbps is more than adequate for most normal purposes, and you're certainly not going to be able to tell the difference between that and a CD when you're listening on an ipod.

[Inkster]

sorry but you have no idea what you're talking about, as chris has pointed out the speed of your computer has no bearing atall on the quality of the encode output, just the length of time it takes to complete.

A/D Converters don't come into it, because when you rip a CD in a computer and encode it to mp3 it's all happening in the digital domain, and if you rip at the slowest possible speed from a well manufactured CD, you're very very unlikely to encounter any errors.

You're totally wrong about clipping, this is something which is controlled by the studio when they produce the master recordings. If you're CD doesn't clip, when you encode it to MP3 it's not going to clip either. You're confusing clipping with dithering and aliasing, which is dependant on samplerates, and that is why you notice washy highs and what *sounds like* distortion as you decrease the bitrate/samplerate of an mp3. It's not clipping.

For the purposes of this discussion, most people who buy and listen to music do not have outrageously expensive hifi setups with professional quality A/D converters, in acoustically treated rooms. That's a niche market, which is full of a lot of chinstroking nonsense perpetuated by people who claim to be able to hear a gnat fart at 200 yards.

320kbps is more than adequate for most normal purposes, and you're certainly not going to be able to tell the difference between that and a CD when you're listening on an ipod.

Did you not read the bit further up that says to stop talking about this now?!

[Guest Giles Walker]

Did you not read the bit further up that says to stop talking about this now?!

Sorry guys but this is the way the internet works and i am actually enjoying this lively debate.

Still not buying the idea that you can tell the difference between a 320 mp3 and a cd.

I wanna see graphs and stuff.

[Old Gold]

Plenty room on the internet for everybody and all that.

I think the people complaining that they get looked down on and receive no 'good choice' comments in record shops are pretty funny. Validate me!

[Alkaline]

sorry but you have no idea what you're talking about, as chris has pointed out the speed of your computer has no bearing atall on the quality of the encode output, just the length of time it takes to complete.

A/D Converters don't come into it, because when you rip a CD in a computer and encode it to mp3 it's all happening in the digital domain, and if you rip at the slowest possible speed from a well manufactured CD, you're very very unlikely to encounter any errors.

You're totally wrong about clipping, this is something which is controlled by the studio when they produce the master recordings. If you're CD doesn't clip, when you encode it to MP3 it's not going to clip either. You're confusing clipping with dithering and aliasing, which is dependant on samplerates, and that is why you notice washy highs and what *sounds like* distortion as you decrease the bitrate/samplerate of an mp3. It's not clipping.

For the purposes of this discussion, most people who buy and listen to music do not have outrageously expensive hifi setups with professional quality A/D converters, in acoustically treated rooms. That's a niche market, which is full of a lot of chinstroking nonsense perpetuated by people who claim to be able to hear a gnat fart at 200 yards.

320kbps is more than adequate for most normal purposes, and you're certainly not going to be able to tell the difference between that and a CD when you're listening on an ipod.

I discussed that with Chris and you'll see that we covered it.

Yes, very unlikely but still possible nonetheless and also not everyone treats CDs with Kid Gloves and we all know what a good fingerprint/scratch can do to a CD when you're ripping it onto a computer or on playback.

Yes, i was getting the two confused but both yield similar results and bad anti-aliasing will yield distortion as clipping will in a recording.

I don't agree with your last statement, but you're entitled to your opinion as am i.

[Jeanette]

Plenty room on the internet for everybody and all that.

I think the people complaining that they get looked down on and receive no 'good choice' comments in record shops are pretty funny. Validate me!

I await the next installment of this thread.

[Chris]

I haven't bought an album from a record shop for ages. Despite working in the centre of town, mainly because sites like Play are usually slightly cheaper and more convenient. So they're fighting a battle on a few fronts. People not buying CDs at all and those that are just buying them online because they're more competitive. Can't see the local shop competing with either of those in the long term.

[Guest Giles Walker]

One thing i was thinking about last night was local record shops (isn't store an americanism?) could start online shops that sold local bands mp3s next to gig tickets and the usual stuff.

If one band were selling lots of mp3s then it would make sense to press them onto 7" singles or cds so that they could be owned in the physical realm. Kinda like a more futuristic version of Rough Trade in the 70s.

Admittedly it would take a bit of effort but it would mean local shops would be part of the local scene, which would no doubt then attract online interest from elsewhere.

I'd love to be able to find local shops in weird places and check out their band scenes online.

This is obviously not an entirely serious proposal but it kinda makes sense.

Right everybody please start shooting me down now.

[Chris]

One thing i was thinking about last night was local record shops (isn't store an americanism?) could start online shops that sold local bands mp3s next to gig tickets and the usual stuff.

If one band were selling lots of mp3s then it would make sense to press them onto 7" singles or cds so that they could be owned in the physical realm. Kinda like a more futuristic version of Rough Trade in the 70s.

Admittedly it would take a bit of effort but it would mean local shops would be part of the local scene, which would no doubt then attract online interest from elsewhere.

I'd love to be able to find local shops in weird places and check out their band scenes online.

This is obviously not an entirely serious proposal but it kinda makes sense.

Right everybody please start shooting me down now.

This post has reminded me that One Up STILL doesn't have a web presence. Shoddy.

[Stripey]

I discussed that with Chris and you'll see that we covered it.

Yes, very unlikely but still possible nonetheless and also not everyone treats CDs with Kid Gloves and we all know what a good fingerprint/scratch can do to a CD when you're ripping it onto a computer or on playback.

Yes, i was getting the two confused but both yield similar results and bad anti-aliasing will yield distortion as clipping will in a recording.

I don't agree with your last statement, but you're entitled to your opinion as am i.

If your CD has a scratch that's got nothing to do with mp3 encoding.

Of course if you encode with a lossy format at a low bitrate eventually you're going to reach a point where so much information is discarded that the processing becomes audible, everyone knows that so what's you're point? P.S nobody who knows what they are talking about could possibly confuse concepts like dither and aliasing with clipping....

[Jeanette]

This post has reminded me that One Up STILL doesn't have a web presence. Shoddy.

I find this really strange. Would be handy to know what gig tickets they've got on sale etc. Because I'd much rather take a wander down Belmont St to buy my gig tickets and only pay 10% booking fee rather than the nonsense that seetickets and ticketmaster add on.

I've went in before and asked politely if they've had tickets that I'm looking for and got a "is it on that list?"... Well, if it had been on the list I wouldn't have asked in the first place, but I'm one of those people who always asks just in case.

They don't have to have an online shop but surely even the most basic of information would increase profile, particularly for visitors to the city... who are doing what we do when we go to Glasgow/London/insert other city.

[Inkster]

Yeah a basic front page (or even myspace page since it's free) would be nice. Best you get just now is google maps telling you where it's at.

[Neil]

This post has reminded me that One Up STILL doesn't have a web presence. Shoddy.

I find this strange as well. What is more curious is I remember when Ross (as in my ex-flatmate / Moshulu / Palace DJ) worked at One-Up he showed me a development version of a full blown online music store that had been designed and built-it by IFB on behalf of One-Up - all at some considerable cost. I have absolutely no idea why this web site never saw the light of day.

[Chris]

I find this strange as well. What is more curious is I remember when Ross (as in my ex-flatmate / Moshulu / Palace DJ) worked at One-Up he showed me a development version of a full blown online music store that had been designed and built-it by IFB on behalf of One-Up - all at some considerable cost. I have absolutely no idea why this web site never saw the light of day.

Yeah I remember being told about that as well. Domain names were purchased and everything. Fuck knows where it went, that was 7 or 8 years ago now.

[Alkaline]

If your CD has a scratch that's got nothing to do with mp3 encoding.

Of course if you encode with a lossy format at a low bitrate eventually you're going to reach a point where so much information is discarded that the processing becomes audible, everyone knows that so what's you're point? P.S nobody who knows what they are talking about could possibly confuse concepts like dither and aliasing with clipping....

It does if you're supplying it with errors.

Are you seriously trying to tell me that in the reduction from CD quality (1,411.2 kbit/s) to 320kbps there is NO loss of audible sound? That's my point.

I disagree with your last comment as everyone is capable of making mistakes regardless of their knowledge base.

[Johnny Mac]

I find this strange as well. What is more curious is I remember when Ross (as in my ex-flatmate / Moshulu / Palace DJ) worked at One-Up he showed me a development version of a full blown online music store that had been designed and built-it by IFB on behalf of One-Up - all at some considerable cost. I have absolutely no idea why this web site never saw the light of day.

I seem to remember something went tits up with IFB, loads of people I know lost their sites and money.

One-Up did ask me ages ago to do a site (I think Ross was still working there at the time) so I asked them to arrange a meeting with me (much like many other people looking for websites etc they never got back to me).

Thank god, as it would have been a horror job.

[emergency72]

I find this strange as well. What is more curious is I remember when Ross (as in my ex-flatmate / Moshulu / Palace DJ) worked at One-Up he showed me a development version of a full blown online music store that had been designed and built-it by IFB on behalf of One-Up - all at some considerable cost. I have absolutely no idea why this web site never saw the light of day.

I've seen this....I'm sure it was live once upon a time..o_O

[la mula]

Are you seriously trying to tell me that in the reduction from CD quality (1,411.2 kbit/s) to 320kbps there is NO loss of audible sound?

That's right. You should do a blind test, that's the best way.

[Stripey]

It does if you're supplying it with errors.

Are you seriously trying to tell me that in the reduction from CD quality (1,411.2 kbit/s) to 320kbps there is NO loss of audible sound? That's my point.

I disagree with your last comment as everyone is capable of making mistakes regardless of their knowledge base.

Uhm, if your source is a physically damaged CD, the result is going to reflect that wether you're using 64kbps mono mp3 or just ripping the raw waveform, it tells us nothing about the quality of mp3 codecs themselves.

If you rip a CD, and play back the raw waveform then the 320kbps CBR mp3 on the same sound source (i.e a computer with an audio interface that has high quality D/A converters) you will not be able to tell the difference.

I'm surprised you're so confident about the quality of the CD standard, when the spec (16bit, 44.1khz) is designed with the same tradeoffs of wordlength/samplerate vs what general concensus tells us humans are capable of perceiving that lies behind the MP3 standard.

Most modern studios now will be working with 24bit audio using 96 or 192khz A/D converters (which many people will argue is overkill, especially 192khz) so the CD you buy in the shops has already had generational loss introduced when the original recording is dithered down to the 16bit CD standard. Surely with your bat-like hearing you should be up in arms about the loss in quality?

[Guest Steven Dedalus]

This post has reminded me that One Up STILL doesn't have a web presence. Shoddy.

Ahh, the fabled One Up website...

It just seemed to be hanging over us all the time, like the Sword of Damocles, soaking up more and more moeny.

I've no idea what became of it, and it was always a sore point that we seemed to be lacking in that vital area. In terms of a myspace, frankly none of us seemed to have the internet at home at the time, and weren't able to do it.

So there you go.

[Guest idol_wild]

Ahh, the fabled One Up website...

It just seemed to be hanging over us all the time, like the Sword of Damocles, soaking up more and more moeny.

I've no idea what became of it, and it was always a sore point that we seemed to be lacking in that vital area. In terms of a myspace, frankly none of us seemed to have the internet at home at the time, and weren't able to do it.

So there you go.

I started a One Up myspace. True story. Using the web connection at One Up.

Then Fred told me to stop using the internet connection: "This is a shop, nae a library".

This is all true.

Progress, eh?

Such a poorly run shop. And I am oly too glad former staff members are quick to point this out to them.

[Guest Steven Dedalus]

I started a One Up myspace. True story. Using the web connection at One Up.

Then Fred told me to stop using the internet connection: "This is a shop, nae a library".

.

Aye, but you were probably looking at naughty pictures or something.

[Alkaline]

Uhm, if your source is a physically damaged CD, the result is going to reflect that wether you're using 64kbps mono mp3 or just ripping the raw waveform, it tells us nothing about the quality of mp3 codecs themselves.

If you rip a CD, and play back the raw waveform then the 320kbps CBR mp3 on the same sound source (i.e a computer with an audio interface that has high quality D/A converters) you will not be able to tell the difference.

I'm surprised you're so confident about the quality of the CD standard, when the spec (16bit, 44.1khz) is designed with the same tradeoffs of wordlength/samplerate vs what general concensus tells us humans are capable of perceiving that lies behind the MP3 standard.

Most modern studios now will be working with 24bit audio using 96 or 192khz A/D converters (which many people will argue is overkill, especially 192khz) so the CD you buy in the shops has already had generational loss introduced when the original recording is dithered down to the 16bit CD standard. Surely with your bat-like hearing you should be up in arms about the loss in quality?

It depends on what sort of set-up you're using. If you're listening to them both over shitty laptop speakers then you won't hear a difference at all but if you've got a high quality pair of speakers you may well do depending on your own hearing. You can't tell me what i can and can't hear Stripey and you'll notice i've not chided you for not being able to hear the difference (which personally is something i find shocking from someone of your background).

Don't get me wrong, i think mp3 and other codecs have their place but i'd rather have a higher quality physical product at the end of the day and for me personally CD is that product.

Current CD sound quality is not in question though. There is nothing more that they can do with it that would have any benefit. Whereas there will always be something that they can do with mp3 encoding etc that will make it better or closer to CD quality.

And what you're saying Studios are using is overkill.

[Frosty Jack]

It depends on what sort of set-up you're uzzzzzzzzzz

Ferchrissakes, give it up...

[Alkaline]

Ferchrissakes, give it up...

Cork it old man.