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Guest Bob

Reunification: A tale of two forums or "How I learned to hate the Feedback Forum"

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Guest Bob

The feedback forum must go. It is an error in planning, a misguided attempt to achieve I don't know what. Quite simply, it sucks.

What the feedback forum does: It creates an unnecessarily separate location for local musicians to receive critiques outwith the general melee of 'music discussion'. But what is 'music discussion' if not feedback of one kind or another? What is aberdeen-music's music discussion forum for, if not feedback on the music scene of Aberdeen?

If all things were well and good 'music discussion' would, by rights, BE the feedback forum. The feedback forum simply kicks local music and its concerns into a dimly lit corner of what is supposed to be OUR LOCAL music forum. It relegates conversation regarding Aberdeen's artists from the Premier League into the Vauxhall conference with one deft stroke.

"Yes yes, we have a local music scene, but don't worry, we've neatly swept that under the carpet!"

I suggest that by allowing local musicians to post up material for discussion in the busier music discussion forum they would receive more feedback and attention, and that the one remaining forum would become far more relevant to what this whole website is supposed to be about, "the music scene of aberdeen scotland".

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There may be some confusion here as to where the division lies. The separation is, or should be, based not on whether it's local or not, but whether it is someone seeking a review of their own work. For example, you could start a post saying "Black Atom are great, aren't they?" and that would be just as valid as saying "Smashing Pumpkins are great aren't they?" - both would be 'Music Discussion'. But Rass or Mac posting "Here's a new tune, what do you think?" would be feedback. And if Mr Corgan ever did sign up and post "Here's a new tune, what do you think?", I'd stick that in the Feedback Forum too. It's about the poster's intention, not location.

I believe discussions are ongoing as to how to change the forum description to clarify this, maybe this would help.

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I think that if you posted material that you were requesting feedback for in the music discussion forum it would quickly become a "second pager" and therefore achieve nothing, which in all honesty is not much less than it's achieving at the moment.

(I had a quick look, music discussion first page goes back 4 days,feedback forum first page goes back a month)

I think the problem with the feedback forum is that to give feedback on a song the listener has to both have strong views on it and the ability to put these views into words other than "I like that" or "that's shit" because most people, quite rightly, don't regard these as constructive.

Perhaps an anonymous, one time per user rating system would get better (certainly more) results than expecting people to explain WHY they like/hate something.

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In some ways I agree with Bob - allowing local artists the chance to expose themselves (ummm....) should be pretty high up in Ab-musics objectives. People just don't read the feedback forum, instead concentrating on the discussion about bigger name artists in Music Discussion.

However, who's to say that if they two forums were amalgamated, people wouldn't just skip all the posts about local bands and just read the ones about the bands they like anyway?

I agree that perhaps the whole feedback thing does need an overhaul, but I don't know if merging it with Music Discussion is the answer. As tehe person above me said, maybe a ratings system would work, where a person could link to their track and allow a user to give it a rating say out of 5, and write a comment about what they thought of it - similar to the Boopoll on the front page (but without the obligatory ridiculous fourth answer).

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Guest Bob
There may be some confusion here as to where the division lies. The separation is, or should be, based not on whether it's local or not, but whether it is someone seeking a review of their own work.

In that case the forum should be renamed and radically re branded to reflect that. The description should be changed to something along the lines of "For artists seeking an in-depth, constructive review of their work ala Rocksound, Kerrang or NME - if any of those were actually any good".

Perhaps finding a core group of reviewers who could work with ab-music and can string a few sentences together would be an idea, along the lines of absolutepunk.net

For those who simply want to get attention for something they have created and get maximum exposure they should be encouraged to post it in music discussion. If people then want to provide feedback they could do so without having to worry about the thread being moved.

For example, you could start a post saying "Black Atom are great, aren't they?" and that would be just as valid as saying "Smashing Pumpkins are great aren't they?" - both would be 'Music Discussion'. But Rass or Mac posting "Here's a new tune, what do you think?" would be feedback.

But that simply stops Rass and Mac generating maximum exposure for Black Atom on music discussion, because you'd have to have balls the size of watermelons to post in music discussion saying "My band are great!"

A quick view of music discussion will quickly show that hardly any of the discussion on there is ever about local music, and I think one of the main reasons behind this is the existence of the feedback forum. Perhaps Frosty, this is in part due to the confusion you're speaking about, but whatever the reason I think we need to do something about it.

The music discussion forum of a site called ABERDEEN-MUSIC rarely, if EVER has any discussion on the music scene of Aberdeen.

Something is wrong here. Can you imagine how this must look to the 3rd party observer who comes to this site trying to find out about our music scene?

"Yeah, I went on aberdeen-music but everyone was talking about Smashing Pumpkins and cover songs and Britney Spears. Couldn't be much of a local music scene up there".

I think that if you posted material that you were requesting feedback for in the music discussion forum it would quickly become a "second pager" and therefore achieve nothing, which in all honesty is not much less than it's achieving at the moment.

Maybe it would, but while it was on the first page it would receive as much attention in 3 days as it would in a month of languishing at the bottom of the feedback forum. And for those threads that sparked an interesting discussion, or that people truly did have an opinion on, it would serve to provide much greater exposure and interest for the artists involved and everyone else involved in the music scene.

That can only be a good thing.

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i used to sympathise with your view:

http://www.aberdeen-music.com/forums/comments-suggestions/23737-stop-moving-bloody-threads-all-music-discussion.html

that was around 18 months ago. i was going to say that i think the situation has become "worse", but really something more has happened in my opinion:

- bebo/myspace have perhaps taken away somewhat from the social aspect of a-m.com

- in the last five years, the number of local bands playing in aberdeen venues, whether they are online or not, has grown a lot. i think this is in part to do with the growing number of venues willing to put on local live acts. the point being that if bands were all to ask for feedback, most likely they wouldn't get any and you would have a lot of zero-reply threads

- as ian said, the music discussion does seem to turn over a lot more quickly than the feedback forum.

I don't live in Aberdeen anymore, but I do like being able to keep up with what's going on gig wise through this website. I like the feedback forum: i wish more people used it, but in a way, i've come to appreciate its 'solo' forum nature. its purpose is clear and i think it is effective for those that use it.

i think some people (myself included) wished more for the aubl forum kind of feedback, which to be honest a-m.com hasn't seen for about 4 years in my opinion, in the same manner and scale. however i don't think that is the fault of a-m.com - i think the popular music scene has changed a lot and brought in a lot of new faces. back in 2001/2002, i seem to remember the scene focus online being metal/punk/ska - where as these days i would say it is more pop/indie/extreme.

the infrastructure has never been lacking with this website, on the contrary i think it is almost too much in the forefront: i think sometimes that the almost OCD like categorisation of forums and sub forums can make interest wane, because it is more work for some people to have a 'casual browse'. it must be a difficult balance to keep between hands off approach (with the risk of losing visitors who can't keep up with the pace of change) versus the strict forums categorisation that has been seen in the last couple of years.

to be honest i am surprised Neil still has the stomach to keep this website going after so long, though i have to commend him for doing so (does this website never have downtime?? christ!). i would be interested to see usage statistics over the last 3 years, to see the variations in active member counts over seasons and over changing web trends such as bebo/myspace etc. etc.

it would be interesting if one day this website was suddenly switched off, to see what people would miss the most - i can guess it wouldn't be the feedback forum (for most people), yet i am sure a lot of the smaller, low post but high readability forums would be missed, such as musicians corner, classifieds, feedback forums.

at the end of the day, there are websites online that have the same purpose as the feedback forum, and are very popular. i suppose that if we're honest we like the idea of the feedback forums here because the readership is local and smaller, so if we do something good, we are more likely to be noticed and respected! how vain we are!

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I agree with Frosty Jack. If you look at most other forums of this nature they all have a seperate sub-forum to post tracks in for feedback. If you were a local artist/band releasing a new recording up for sale or whatever, I would post it in the music discussion forum.

Perhaps the solution to Bob's problem is to have a box on the front page of the site with links to, for example, the 5 most recent threads in the feedback forum.

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Guest Neutral

if users were allowed to choose whether the feedback was local or not

maybe an icon displayed beside each post

and a link to show only local or non local

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I never actually looked at the description for the feedback forum before and I can see where Bob is coming from on this. I can't see why he thinks it's in any way harming discussion of local music though, nearly all the posts (on the first page at least) are people who've put up tracks hoping to get some sort of feedback, which is what I thought it was for and what I think it should be restricted to.

The more I think about it, having a ratings system would be a good idea on that forum.Most of the threads have very little in the way of feedback in them and I think that 50 3/5's will say a lot more than 50 people not bothering to type "that was ok" or "nae too shabby".

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I can't see why he thinks it's in any way harming discussion of local music though

I think his point is that in the music discussion forum hardly any threads are about local music, this is the fault of having feedback in a seperate forum. While in ye olde days of this site, aubl, lithium or blind youth boards the majority of discussion was about local bands.

It's a fair point and one I was thinking about it the other day. As someone else said it could just be that with myspace and bebo a lot of that kind of thing has been taken offsite.

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I think his point is that in the music discussion forum hardly any threads are about local music, this is the fault of having feedback in a separate forum.

If there isn't a lot of local music discussion in the music discussion forum we can hardly blame it on the feedback forum for diverting the posts away because they're not there either.

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Guest Jake Wifebeater

These days, negative feedback has a weird habit of being erased from threads so there's no point in leaving any, unless it's "Wow, that's awesome, you guys are great". This does nobody any favours.

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These days, negative feedback has a weird habit of being erased from threads so there's no point in leaving any

Only if it's unconstructive, abusive nonsense or dredging up past conflicts.

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These days, negative feedback has a weird habit of being erased from threads so there's no point in leaving any, unless it's "Wow, that's awesome, you guys are great". This does nobody any favours.

Bollocks. I challenge you to name a thread featuring negative feedback that has been deleted purely for being so.

I've had a trawl through the last few months and the only thing at all that I can find that has been deleted by a mod is the frankly pathetic 'feud' between spike/squad and MMW. None of which had anything to do with feedback.

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Guest Bob
If there isn't a lot of local music discussion in the music discussion forum we can hardly blame it on the feedback forum for diverting the posts away because they're not there either.

The point is by removing the majority of local music discussions from the main music forum the website architecture actually diminishes the importance of local music, decreasing traffic specifically to those areas. As a result, the numbers of posters contributing to aberdeen-based music discussions are eroded.

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Guest Neutral
Bollocks. I challenge you to name a thread featuring negative feedback that has been deleted purely for being so.

I've had a trawl through the last few months and the only thing at all that I can find that has been deleted by a mod is the frankly pathetic 'feud' between spike/squad and MMW. None of which had anything to do with feedback.

Thats quite hard to do since the "offending" content has been deleted...

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Try doing it without being abusive to other members and bringing up the MMW/Spike nonsense yet again. You know the rules.

obviously i'll give it a try. given that i'm not in spike pile driver it should be easy, deep breath.....actually its hard not to mention that because i think what really lay beneath that infamous spat was quite important, but this is not the time , place or forum for those kind of wieghty issues.

this thread really sums up what i think is wrong with this website.

(my opinion obviously)

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I've had a trawl through the last few months and the only thing at all that I can find that has been deleted by a mod is the frankly pathetic 'feud' between spike/squad and MMW. None of which had anything to do with feedback.

Try doing it without being abusive to other members and bringing up the MMW/Spike nonsense yet again. You know the rules.

You mods look FAR too hard into finding conflict within wayne Scorge's and my discussions. I see so many fucking arguments that are equally if not more pathetic than ours (other than the fact that they are not as infamous/amusing). If it's pathetic it's for one of two reasons:

a) because Scorge will ALWAYS find a petty way of attempting to put down anything MMW does, no matter how fucking incredible it is (and let's face it, we are pretty amazing these days*)

b) because the same old argument has occurred time and time again.

If the answer is b) then why don't all those "emo is this, that and the next" arguments get closed instantly, because they happen just as (if not more) often and they are not even a little bit funny.

And for the record, that last 'frankly pathetic' series of comments that got removed didn't have as much as petty name calling in it - and unless it got removed due to a final Scorge comment which I didn't get to see then it was no more waste of bandwidth than:

300,000,000 page threads of self indulgent "what CDs are you buying?" in which no one gives a toss about anyones else's posts except their own.

or

Element 106 forum posts which is basically inter-band conversations that could be held via phone, text, msn or god forbid in fucking person.

or

the afore mentioned "what is emo" threads, in which the same bunch of people have no clue whatsoever, followed by other people going, "oh, real emo is this - you are stupid", and it goes full circle again and again with the same old result of no one being any the wiser.

If you dig up the last few arguments between wayne and I, you will see that I have tried to resort to nothing more than mild sarcasm here and there. And if you can EVER find a single fued that was actually started by me, by slagging off SPD then I will buy you all a pint, and that is a promise.

Say for example I responded to every one of you moderator's posts with "you guys are bell-ends", what would you do? Leave it? I doubt it. It would get removed. But what would you do if you didnt have those almighty moderating abilities and could therefore not remove it?

Because I'm pretty sure you wouldn't just ignore it.

Finally, these are NEVER "MMW vs SPD" fueds. 4 out of my 5 band members don't go on this site. And I don't have any beef with SPD. Scorge clearly has a probem with mmw and/or likes winding me up, and if he "comments" on a thread that I start, then I WILL respond; so at the very worst call it something gay like 'Scorge vs Dan' or some other ridiculous monicker it to make it sound like it's a bigger deal than it actually is, and therefore worthy of unleashing those moderating skillz. But don't label my entire band as being involved in petty arguments when it has nothing to do with them. It is as rash, lazy and unfair as the following:

Mike Tyson is a rapist. Mike Tyson is black. So therefore, black people = rapists.

:popcorn:

*humour

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You mods look FAR too hard into finding conflict within wayne Scorge's and my discussions. I see so many fucking arguments that are equally if not more pathetic than ours (other than the fact that they are not as infamous/amusing). If it's pathetic it's for one of two reasons:

a) because Scorge will ALWAYS find a petty way of attempting to put down anything MMW does, no matter how fucking incredible it is (and let's face it, we are pretty amazing these days*)

b) because the same old argument has occurred time and time again.

If the answer is b) then why don't all those "emo is this, that and the next" arguments get closed instantly, because they happen just as (if not more) often and they are not even a little bit funny.

And for the record, that last 'frankly pathetic' series of comments that got removed didn't have as much as petty name calling in it - and unless it got removed due to a final Scorge comment which I didn't get to see then it was no more waste of bandwidth than:

300,000,000 page threads of self indulgent "what CDs are you buying?" in which no one gives a toss about anyones else's posts except their own.

or

Element 106 forum posts which is basically inter-band conversations that could be held via phone, text, msn or god forbid in fucking person.

or

the afore mentioned "what is emo" threads, in which the same bunch of people have no clue whatsoever, followed by other people going, "oh, real emo is this - you are stupid", and it goes full circle again and again with the same old result of no one being any the wiser.

If you dig up the last few arguments between wayne and I, you will see that I have tried to resort to nothing more than mild sarcasm here and there. And if you can EVER find a single fued that was actually started by me, by slagging off SPD then I will buy you all a pint, and that is a promise.

Say for example I responded to every one of you moderator's posts with "you guys are bell-ends", what would you do? Leave it? I doubt it. It would get removed. But what would you do if you didnt have those almighty moderating abilities and could therefore not remove it?

Because I'm pretty sure you wouldn't just ignore it.

Finally, these are NEVER "MMW vs SPD" fueds. 4 out of my 5 band members don't go on this site. And I don't have any beef with SPD. Scorge clearly has a probem with mmw and/or likes winding me up, and if he "comments" on a thread that I start, then I WILL respond; so at the very worst call it something gay like 'Scorge vs Dan' or some other ridiculous monicker it to make it sound like it's a bigger deal than it actually is, and therefore worthy of unleashing those moderating skillz. But don't label my entire band as being involved in petty arguments when it has nothing to do with them. It is as rash, lazy and unfair as the following:

Mike Tyson is a rapist. Mike Tyson is black. So therefore, black people = rapists.

:popcorn:

*humour

great post dawg.

i liked the spike mmw debacles,

they were great fun but also proved that both members of spike and mmw ( when folks from both camps could comment) actually gave a fuck about the music, enough to bicker anyhow. thats a good sign i reckon. giving a fuck is good. as much as discussion is discouraged here. where the fuck would we be if everyone jist glibbly said " great song guys, jist needs a titch of eq", exactly, in the moorings...wanking.

anyhow.

over and out.

the new weapon song is okay actually. i taped it off the internet.....

because theres no way i'll get a copy to review!

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You mods look FAR too hard into finding conflict within wayne Scorge's and my discussions. I see so many fucking arguments that are equally if not more pathetic than ours (other than the fact that they are not as infamous/amusing). If it's pathetic it's for one of two reasons:

a) because Scorge will ALWAYS find a petty way of attempting to put down anything MMW does, no matter how fucking incredible it is ...

It is pretty much just that, for me anyway. (other mods may differ) - I just get so sick of the inevitability that if you post something about MMW, then there will follow yet another jibe featuring the words Rinky/dink/whatever. 99% of the time it means absolutely nothing to anyone else and is never relevant to the thread. So I am quite likely to remove all traces, not because I find it offensive, but purely to keep the real discussion on track.

Finally, these are NEVER "MMW vs SPD" feuds...don't label my entire band as being involved in petty arguments when it has nothing to do with them.

Point taken. But whatever you call all that bollocks, or whoever starts it, if it's just getting in the way I'll probably still remove it.

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great post dawg.

i liked the spike mmw debacles,

they were great fun but also proved that both members of spike and mmw ( when folks from both camps could comment) actually gave a fuck about the music, enough to bicker anyhow. thats a good sign i reckon. giving a fuck is good. as much as discussion is discouraged here. where the fuck would we be if everyone jist glibbly said " great song guys, jist needs a titch of eq", exactly, in the moorings...wanking.

Agreed! :up:

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