Guest Steven Dedalus Posted August 31, 2007 Report Share Posted August 31, 2007 I am fully condoning total piracy of all music released on major labels and distributed by people like itunes. I didn't say musicians shouldn't get paid - but now that every musician has the means to very cheaply release their own music and cut out all the middlemen, I would question the motives and the intelligence of any artist that signs to a big label.I sort of know what you mean, but I'm still not convinced of it. Since I started downloading stuff from torrents, I have not really been buying cds any more. But the reason I didn't start doing it earlier is becuase in Aberdeen, the selection was far better, and the kind of records I like to buy could actually be found in the shops (unlike here in Belfast).I do question the motives of any artists that sign to a major label (which is why I wouldn't even entertain the merest possibility of such a thing when it arose), but I'm not for one second saying that it's actually wrong to do so. That sounds very wishy washy, but some people are suited to that sort of thing, and the practicalities of doing by themselves and going doing the indie route simply wouldn't work.The music industry simply has to change, but the model you seem to be advocating simply wouldn't work. If there was total piracy, musicians would not even earn the pittance they do at the minute. Saying that people can put their own music on the internet and do it themselves and sell it that way wouldn't work, cos if you could download anything, why would you bother paying for it from some website?The real exception to all of this is Dischord records. I would NEVER, EVER download anything released on Dischord, because I respect the ethics of the label too much. If I can't buy it in a shop, I'll order it off the internet. And pay for it.I guess musicians need to get paid, and piracy isn't the answer to that question. Also, I firmly believe that the majors will be able to crack down upon it if it's gets TOO out of hand. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jimboo Posted August 31, 2007 Report Share Posted August 31, 2007 do question the motives of any artists that sign to a major label (which is why I wouldn't even entertain the merest possibility of such a thing when it arose), Why? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stripey Posted August 31, 2007 Report Share Posted August 31, 2007 The music industry simply has to change, but the model you seem to be advocating simply wouldn't work. If there was total piracy, musicians would not even earn the pittance they do at the minute.I'm only advocating it as a temporary measure to force the industry to adapt. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jimboo Posted August 31, 2007 Report Share Posted August 31, 2007 I'm only advocating it as a temporary measure to force the industry to adapt. How would that work? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stripey Posted August 31, 2007 Report Share Posted August 31, 2007 How do you get your music to the people?Give it away free? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jimboo Posted August 31, 2007 Report Share Posted August 31, 2007 Give it away free? oh , ok where? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Domino Posted August 31, 2007 Report Share Posted August 31, 2007 Give it away free? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Steven Dedalus Posted August 31, 2007 Report Share Posted August 31, 2007 I guess cos I always associate major labels (in today's world anyway) with compromise. Having had a bit of experience in dealing with these scumbags, they don't (as a rule) know anything about music, don't care about it, and just want to make more money than you ever will.Music is not just product, it is more than that, but those guys tend to just to look at it as product.A band I was in (who shall remain nameless for the sake of decency) played a gig that was attended by a load of major label dudes, and apparently, the guy from Warners (or possibly Universal) said, "They're no Stereophonics, I could never see them filling Wembley Stadium." And he was right; we were not the Stereophonics, and would rather not ever play music again than become them.Those guys just miss the point, and it's a whole business that is geared against allowing musicians to do what they want to do.Also, loads of majors just sign up bands in the hope that they can make a quick buck off them, and then wash their hands of them immediately. It's the only industry with an 80% failure rate (or whatever it is...) and where those figures are seen as acceptable.But it works for some people, and that's why I'd never write it off. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stripey Posted August 31, 2007 Report Share Posted August 31, 2007 oh , ok where?internet? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Steven Dedalus Posted August 31, 2007 Report Share Posted August 31, 2007 I'm only advocating it as a temporary measure to force the industry to adapt.I can see where you're coming from with that, but I think it would just end up in a situation with tighter controls... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Domino Posted August 31, 2007 Report Share Posted August 31, 2007 oh , ok where?spread it through internet - your website, any others, friends,youtube .anything you'll come up with loads of people do that with their first album nowadays Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Steven Dedalus Posted August 31, 2007 Report Share Posted August 31, 2007 spread it through internet - your website, any others, friends,youtube .anything you'll come up with loads of people do that with their first album nowadaysAye, but it's a whole different ball game now. You really have to know what you want out of it. If you want loads of people to hear your music and nothing else, I guess it's fine, but it still can't beat mass media exposure from traditional methods (at the moment anyway), for better or worse. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jimboo Posted August 31, 2007 Report Share Posted August 31, 2007 internet?God help me , and they FIND it how? "hello mr radio dj me and my band do not want to sign for a record label. Here is our cdr give it a kisten and a spin will ya" ? "sure kid" " Hello mr record shop look here is a cdr from a band that refuses to be signed to the majors. Ignore your suppliers and put it in the window and give folks a free listen on them headphones on the wall , well just move the Interpol album somewhere else" "sure kid" We have a website named after our band and we are on my space . I know there are over 100 million web pages but we are gonna stand out well because WE are the new Monkeys cept we have conviction. Hey we have uploaded our album for free on your peer 2 peer site. I know you have never heard of us . We do not get played on the radio you cannot get our product in the shops but we got a website. Are we signed? No we don't believe in that. Why ? Cos we are teaching the majors a lesson. We are an unsigned band and we are gonna stay that way. Download our music for free and then we can buy new gear and studio time an er a transit van and get a really good producer for nothing. Yeah fuck the man! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stripey Posted August 31, 2007 Report Share Posted August 31, 2007 I can see where you're coming from with that, but I think it would just end up in a situation with tighter controls...The thing is, now everyone has at their disposal the tools to record, produce, release and distribute music entirely independantly of labels and all the other middlemen, for relatively low cost, so who needs the music industry anyway? The thing online piracy proves is that the business model the industry operates under is now redundant, it scared them enough that they were even taking little old ladies to court for sharing mp3s ffs. When artists and consumers can directly do business, it's good for the artist, good for the consumer, good for music, and the poor old industry fatcats refuse to accept the fact that they don't have a right to do what they've gotten away with for all these years. People need to understand that if you really want to support artists, and really want to have access to lots of good diverse music, shopping at itunes, hmv or virgin is totally counterproductive. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Domino Posted August 31, 2007 Report Share Posted August 31, 2007 No one was talking about shite myspace page, there's a little chance of people buying a album from a band that heard only few times, and downloading it for free isn't that hard and you won't have to pay money obviously.. so there's a opportunity to get known a bit better than be focused on money straight from the beginning... P.S. Most of the bands in myspace are bad - .... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jimboo Posted August 31, 2007 Report Share Posted August 31, 2007 The thing is, now everyone has at their disposal the tools to record, produce, release and distribute music entirely independantly of labels and all the other middlemen, for relatively low cost, so who needs the music industry anyway? The thing online piracy proves is that the business model the industry operates under is now redundant, it scared them enough that they were even taking little old ladies to court for sharing mp3s ffs. When artists and consumers can directly do business, it's good for the artist, good for the consumer, good for music, and the poor old industry fatcats refuse to accept the fact that they don't have a right to do what they've gotten away with for all these years. People need to understand that if you really want to support artists, and really want to have access to lots of good diverse music, shopping at itunes, hmv or virgin is totally counterproductive. I understand what you are saying. Look in the good old days when i fought the punk wars it was the same idea. You get labels like stiff and rough trade all trying to do the same thing. You still have to get the music to the people. So you have to be able to by pass traditional methods. You still as a musician have a right to earn a crust. If you want to play live to 3 guys in Biffy Clyro t-shirts and a fat guy polishing glasses in some grubby estate pub fine. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jimboo Posted August 31, 2007 Report Share Posted August 31, 2007 No one was talking about shite myspace page, there's a little chance of people buying a album from a band that heard only few times, and downloading it for free isn't that hard and you won't have to pay money obviously.. so there's a opportunity to get known a bit better There is little chance of anyone finding your webpage either. There is little chance of anyone finding or writing about your band. There is little chance of someone noticing your band as a free download amongst the others. It is not a realistic option. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Steven Dedalus Posted August 31, 2007 Report Share Posted August 31, 2007 If artists and consumers could directly do business, that would be pretty ideal, I guess, but I can't really see it happening.With regards to the whole business of people having the technology to do all of it themselves, that is without doubt one of the greatest developments in music for a long time. However, countering that, I'm not sure everyone who is doing it should be doing it (without wishing to sound fascistic).There are loads of people producing really sub-standad stuff, and thinking they're total rock stars. The whole problem with the internet is that it has no quality control. I know it can't be avoided, and in theory it's great that everyone has the chance to do it, but it still means that the good stuff is being swallowed up in rubbish.Also, loads of people are not able to record themselves well, and producers are something that I firmly respect. I loved home recording more than anything, but I could never get a decent drum sound (or bass for that matter, as I'm sure anyone who heard my home stuff would agree...), and I still like the notion of 'proper' records, no matter how archaic that sounds.So, in conclusion, we're damned if we do, and we're damned if we don't.Personally, one theory that interests me regarding downloads is that it could provoke a massive change in the industry, but not in the way that the industry thinkis it might. I just finished doing a special report on downloading for a radio station, and one of the things that interested me was that figures from Which? seem to suggest that by 2010, downloads will have completely outstripped physical cd sales. Now if that continues, and people start giving their music away for free because they know people are going to steal it anyway, then the majors will be in trouble, because they'll no-longer be able to fund the costs they've incurred in the past. Also, loads of major retailers are in toruble at the minute, so it's possible that within a few years, the traditional methods of buying music won't be open to us, so the majors will be doubly screwed.In this event, what could conceivably happen is that the whole notion of making music and what motivates people to do so could go back to the proverbial drawing board. I mean, if you're some plebby kid who wants to be a famous rock star and make loads of money, but a major label can't really justify funding you, and you have to charge extorionate prices for concert tickets to try and make money (as many acts are starting to do), then what's the point? Just try and get involved in reality tv or something.Potentially, the rise of the local scene could be on the cards. I believe that shops like One UP cater for people that an HMV or Virgin could never hope to, and weirdly, if they can weather the storm, they stand a better chance of surviving and remaining relevant than the major retailers. If so, then people who are REALLY comitted could release music, recorded and produced and manufactured by themselves on a local level and build it from there without having to wade through loads of guff.Now, I know that's all very far fetched (and full of gaping holes....I am quite tired now...) but some of the possibilities it poses are very interesting to me. For a long time, I've been thinking that there are too many people making terrible music, and it's having an effect on the whole notion of music, and if there was a way of making music more selective, and more refined, then the thing could be built up from the begining again.I am not a fascist, even though I sound like one. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stripey Posted August 31, 2007 Report Share Posted August 31, 2007 If artists and consumers could directly do business, that would be pretty ideal, I guess, but I can't really see it happening.There are loads of people producing really sub-standad stuff, and thinking they're total rock stars. The whole problem with the internet is that it has no quality control. Also, loads of people are not able to record themselves well, and producers are something that I firmly respect. In this event, what could conceivably happen is that the whole notion of making music and what motivates people to do so could go back to the proverbial drawing board. I mean, if you're some plebby kid who wants to be a famous rock star and make loads of money, but a major label can't really justify funding you, and you have to charge extorionate prices for concert tickets to try and make money (as many acts are starting to do), then what's the point? Just try and get involved in reality tv or something.I think it's fantastic that the internet has no quality control, let people decide for themselves if they like something rather than being told what to like by massive corporations and their aggressive marketing campaigns. I think this concept scares some consumers more than they are willing to admit. Producers definately are a commodity which will always matter and become increasingly important, which is why I've chosen this route as a way to possibly make some actual money while at the same being able to put my own material out. People ought to realise that we have infact gone back to the drawing board and this has been happening for nearly a decade, you have to look at what's been going on before murdochs myspace and itunes. Independantly run shoutcast stations running regular live shows have been around for years and are a total joy, this is the platform for independant artists to get involved in a scene and get people switched on to their music. We have the chance now to redefine the terms and it's just unfortunate that so many people don't realise it, because they are too busy strolling around with those ubiquitous white headphones in their ears in the typical passive consumerist manner. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lemonade Posted August 31, 2007 Report Share Posted August 31, 2007 So.... Nirvana, eh? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Steven Dedalus Posted August 31, 2007 Report Share Posted August 31, 2007 I think it's fantastic that the internet has no quality control, let people decide for themselves if they like something rather than being told what to like by massive corporations and their aggressive marketing campaigns. I think this concept scares some consumers more than they are willing to admit. Producers definately are a commodity which will always matter and become increasingly important, which is why I've chosen this route as a way to possibly make some actual money while at the same being able to put my own material out. People ought to realise that we have infact gone back to the drawing board and this has been happening for nearly a decade, you have to look at what's been going on before murdochs myspace and itunes. Independantly run shoutcast stations running regular live shows have been around for years and are a total joy, this is the platform for independant artists to get involved in a scene and get people switched on to their music. We have the chance now to redefine the terms and it's just unfortunate that so many people don't realise it, because they are too busy strolling around with those ubiquitous white headphones in their ears in the typical passive consumerist manner.I really wish I could believe you, but I think it's going to take a lot more to get to that point. Sure, loads of small revolutions have taken place, and the playing field is totally different to the way it was...say, five years ago, but I think something BIG needs to happen to force change.Yer darn right about the producer thing though. If more people knew how to do that stuff, then the overall quality would be vastly improved. I mean, I love recording my own stuff, and sometimes I get some good sounds and some good recordings, but there's nothing better than having someone who knows what they're doing, and is able to help you get the noise in yer head onto the record. If that's the road you've chosen to go down, good luck to you, and may you always remain ethically sound in your business dealings!Also, regarding the lack of quality control on the internet, I really do hate it, precisely because it's one of the best things about it. I get frustrated by how the thing that makes it so appealing also makes it so annoying. If the internet was censored or something (and I'm referring specifically to music) it would be horriffic, it really would be. I hate the thought of a world where any old pleb can't fire out their latest opus. However, I just wish so many of them wouldn't do it....It's a bit of a Catch 22 for me, I suppose, but that's just because I'm bitter. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Steven Dedalus Posted August 31, 2007 Report Share Posted August 31, 2007 So.... Nirvana, eh?Erm, yes...they were all right, weren't they?(Sorry, it's really late, I'm tired, and I can't stop....I'll be good in future) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ZeromiserY Posted August 31, 2007 Author Report Share Posted August 31, 2007 There is little chance of anyone finding your webpage either. There is little chance of anyone finding or writing about your band. There is little chance of someone noticing your band as a free download amongst the others. It is not a realistic option.*clears throat* Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ZeromiserY Posted August 31, 2007 Author Report Share Posted August 31, 2007 *i'd like to burst in with a very matter of fact, mono-toned voice saying*: in my opinion chris novoselic was a much better bass player than he appeared to be in nirvana. what held him back? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest bluesxman Posted September 1, 2007 Report Share Posted September 1, 2007 Cobain's suicide never made them bigger it just gave them longevity. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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