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Sam 45

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I stand corrected.

Hey, if you aren't going to provide any argument to your claim, why should anyone replying to it?

I don't really see why using a laptop in performances makes someone "a fashion victim." Is Merzbow a fashion victim? Probably pretty close to the polar opposite, in fact. The amount of creativity people like Boards of Canada, Fennesz and Tim Hecker use with programs like Ableton is astonishing - remember, these are people using laptops in real time, as opposed to pressing play on a backing track, which a lot of people seem to have a problem with (This particular argument I can understand, though not agree with). I don't see any difference between using a laptop to create music, then using a keyboard (you are still pressing buttons on a machine) or a guitar (you are still pushing buttons on a machine, in effect). Surely the amount of shitty guitar bands out there would suggest that guitar players are fashion victims, if anyone? (I'm not actually saying I believe this, just trying to point out how ridiculous your claim was).

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Hey, if you aren't going to provide any argument to your claim, why should anyone replying to it?

I don't really see why using a laptop in performances makes someone "a fashion victim." Is Merzbow a fashion victim? Probably pretty close to the polar opposite, in fact. The amount of creativity people like Boards of Canada, Fennesz and Tim Hecker use with programs like Ableton is astonishing - remember, these are people using laptops in real time, as opposed to pressing play on a backing track, which a lot of people seem to have a problem with (This particular argument I can understand, though not agree with). I don't see any difference between using a laptop to create music, then using a keyboard (you are still pressing buttons on a machine) or a guitar (you are still pushing buttons on a machine, in effect). Surely the amount of shitty guitar bands out there would suggest that guitar players are fashion victims, if anyone? (I'm not actually saying I believe this, just trying to point out how ridiculous your claim was).

Ok, I agree with you. I was referring to the button pushing, fluorescent jacket wearers of the musical world. Folks like Boards of Canada and Venetian Snares are undoubtedly talented, but they are sadly outweighed by head-waggling prats spouting utter pish from their Apple Macs. I admit I was generalising, and somewhat fast off the mark to complain.

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Ok, I agree with you. I was referring to the button pushing, fluorescent jacket wearers of the musical world. Folks like Boards of Canada and Venetian Snares are undoubtedly talented, but they are sadly outweighed by head-waggling prats spouting utter pish from their Apple Macs. I admit I was generalising, and somewhat fast off the mark to complain.

The good "traditional" musicians are also far outweighed by talentless students/adolescents and their vanity bands. Don't blame the equipment.

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Guest b-bert

One reason for a mac to cost more is it will work reliably.

I use both PCs and macs everday and much prefer the mac. My own machine is an iMac with bootcamp installed. This means i have a PC for hen it is really necessary due to software. But for all normal stuff i use the mac.

Saying that i have no experience of vista yet and it 'may' be better than xp.

edit: and in response to the one button remark my mac mouse has 4 and it is standard and has been for a couple of years. Perhaps people are slating the newest set of macs without trying them. Old macs supported multi button mouses even though they werent supplied.

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Not wishing to get in to the Mac v PC arguement, but in relation to the part about cost - I ran Logic on a Mac Mini with no problem (logic express that is - more features than I would ever need anyway!) - although it needs about 1G of RAM. That would only set you back about 500, cos you can use your old Monitor, Keyboard & Mouse - (I got Logic Express of some dogy geezer on Ebay for 20). You can use an external USB sound card. Plus great software comes as standard with a Mac - including Garageband, which is so easy to use, I had a demo made within a hour the first time I used it. PCs ,er, come with no (useful) software a far as I can remember.

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Guest Tam o' Shantie

The argument for Macs over PCs is mostly ridiculous...I honestly cannot figure out how so many people have been brainwashed into preaching about how great they are. The ad campaign, as far as I can see, alienates every demographic except the 'rich and very stupid' section. A guy saying "I didn't even know what cable I was supposed to be plugging into my camera" doesn't make me think "Wow, he's right - why am I wasting my time with my perfectly usable and smooth running PC?". If people like that can't read a manual or figure things like that out, then maybe they should just be using a typewriter instead. Another zinger is 'Macs don't get viruses'...yeah, well neither does my PC, because I installed a free piece of software from The Internet called 'anti-virus software'. You know what I mean? If PCs were so unworkable and constantly fucked up like mac fanatics implied all the time, then nobody would fucking use them.

It's sort of like buying a dog, and deciding that you can't be bothered to train it, walk it and play with it, so after getting sick of it shitting on your floor, you take it back to the pet shop and get a cat instead - it's great because it shits in a box and doesn't meow at you constantly when it wants attention or chew the place up when you leave it alone in the house. In fact, whenever you see your pals or colleagues you have to tell them about how great the new cat is, and how that old mutt was nothing but trouble and how glad you are that you've been turned on to the cat community. The only problem is, while they're smiling and nodding along with you, they're thinking "man, what the hell is wrong with this jackass? I know plenty of people who are able to look after their dogs without a problem, so what's this retard's excuse?"

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Another zinger is 'Macs don't get viruses'...yeah, well neither does my PC, because I installed a free piece of software from The Internet called 'anti-virus software'. You know what I mean? If PCs were so unworkable and constantly fucked up like mac fanatics implied all the time, then nobody would fucking use them.

That's funny. I don't have to install anti-virus software on my Mac. Or spend two hours downloading and installing 76 Microsoft patches every time I re-install the OS.

The reason most people use Windows based PCs is because they don't know any better or they are forced to (i.e. have to use them in the workplace).

Why has no-one suggested Linux yet?

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Guest Tam o' Shantie
That's funny. I don't have to install anti-virus software on my Mac. Or spend two hours downloading and installing 76 Microsoft patches every time I re-install the OS.

The reason most people use Windows based PCs is because they don't know any better or they are forced to (i.e. have to use them in the workplace).

Why has no-one suggested Linux yet?

It took me all of 5 minutes to install the software, so if that's the downside of saving hundreds by not buying a mac, then I stand by my post. How many times does the average person have to re-install their OS? Since purchasing my PC over two years ago, I've done it a grand total of 0 times. You're right though, I do use a PC because I am oblivious to the 'problem' with PCs. The whole Mac attitude is that the accepted fact of PCs is that they're a hassle to use, and using a Mac liberates you from this burden. The problem with this argument is that my PC has never been a hassle to use...in fact, if I were asked to sum up its behaviour so far, I'd say "it just works" :up:

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I'm a PC user, I've always used PC's... for almost 10years now in fact.... jesus... that's weird. Anyway, I see their flaws almost everyday. It's pretty fuckin frustrating at times. I've installed Windows a fair few times over the years. Some people have never had to bother. Works fine for some, not so well for others. It's really all down to what you're using your computer (PC or Mac) for.

In this instance(if I remember correctly... although I've had a few shandies) the guy was looking for a decent recording computer. His problem is his ram. If he bought more ram, his computer would probably be fine. If he bought a Mac, he'd have spent a lot of money, but he'd probably have a very very good recording computer which would run a lot more stable than his current computer. Macs are great for high end applications as they run less pish in the background(like windows does).

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that's more like it.

No, they aren't good enough. Where's the linux software that's on a par with cubase SX, where's the linux port of fl studio, where's the fully native VST support in linux (last time I checked WINE was involved in a poor hack to get vst working), where's the linux equivalent of reaktor? They don't exist (yet) in a form that's of any use to serious producers that justifies abandoning windows as a production environment..

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which i guess makes you an example of FUD

I'm guessing you tried Linux and didn't like it. Fair play!

Nah, I'm just taking the piss. I'm going to give Linux a go when I replace my existing computer. I'll keep my old desktop running in a corner and stick linux on it for a bit of fun.

I don't want a Mac because I don't want to become a mac user. Just like I'm dreading quitting smoking because I don't want to become a non-smoker.

Seriously, the worst thing about a mac is the mac users telling you about the damn thing. At the end of the day it's a tool, a machine. I can do everything on windows I want to, while the mac won't out of the box, and it's cheaper.

Oh and the only reason Mac's don't get viruses isn't because they're more secure or anything, it's just because the user base is too small compared to windows for it to be worth the virus writers spending time on it. It doesn't get viruses because people don't write them for it.

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No, they aren't good enough. Where's the linux software that's on a par with cubase SX, where's the linux port of fl studio, where's the fully native VST support in linux (last time I checked WINE was involved in a poor hack to get vst working), where's the linux equivalent of reaktor? They don't exist (yet) in a form that's of any use to serious producers that justifies abandoning windows as a production environment..

if you want a linux environment that mimics your windows environment, then that's not going to happen.

i can run VSTs and VSTi's standalone, for example i can use absynth, akoustik piano, drums from hell all with no problem.

most of the features you will find (as well as a lot more) in common windows production suites are also available in linux software, the difference being in linux they are not all integrated into a single application.

the way of working is undoubtedly different from how most use a windows audio system. for example there's no application like Live in linux, though you could probably run it via Wine.

it is a serious platform for audio production however. the main HD recorder program in linux has been integrated into hardware solutions: Ardour at NAB 2006 | ardour

that's not to qualify all linux audio production tools as being commercial grade necessarily; it maybe does indicate that people are producing professional and commercial music on linux already though.

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if you want a linux environment that mimics your windows environment, then that's not going to happen.

i can run VSTs and VSTi's standalone, for example i can use absynth, akoustik piano, drums from hell all with no problem.

most of the features you will find (as well as a lot more) in common windows production suites are also available in linux software, the difference being in linux they are not all integrated into a single application.

Standalone VST is useless for any serious work, complex routing and realtime signal chains involving lots of plugins spread over linked mixer busses is essential.

I don't want a linux audio production environment that mimics windows, if the software was up to the job I would use it, but I'm much more productive using windows for graphics and audio, just as I'm much more productive using linux or solaris with a stripped down minimalist WM as a software development environment.

Again, it's just about choosing the right tools for the job rather than succumbing to opensource evangelism

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Standalone VST is useless for any serious work, complex routing and realtime signal chains involving lots of plugins spread over linked mixer busses is essential.

sorry, should have clarified. they can appear in any position in the signal chain (both VST and VSTi), with any amount of pre or post effects.

I don't want a linux audio production environment that mimics windows, if the software was up to the job I would use it, but I'm much more productive using windows for graphics and audio, just as I'm much more productive using linux or solaris with a stripped down minimalist WM as a software development environment.

Again, it's just about choosing the right tools for the job rather than succumbing to opensource evangelism

well, i'm interested to know why you think it isn't up to the job, or what you tried to do that you found you couldn't, but at the end of the day it's like you say - right tools for the job. i choose to use linux for audio because it suits my way of working. and of course i could do almost everything i do in linux audio-wise in windows - it's just that i don't have to, so why bother. i defy anyone to consistently do something purely for evangelical reasons - it just doesn't work!

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I have ran music programmes with 1GB RAM, 2 is strongly preferable though.

I understand the MAC operating system may be more stable than windows, however... SOME of the releases of music software for MACs are thought to be less stable, themselves.

MAC people now own logic or something like that, i can't remember exactly who bought what.#

Standalone VST is useless for any serious work, complex routing and realtime signal chains involving lots of plugins spread over linked mixer busses is essential.

I am inclined to agree with Stripey here, up until a point. You want Native Instruments Kore or Abbelton live to run synths in a performance situation.

Sequencers such as Cubase, Logic, Sonar etc. are good for recording but if you want your software synths to act like one giant workstation you really need a host programme for them.

There is a linux based synth hosting machine called the receptor.

Muse Research : The home of Receptor: the Ultimate Synth / Sampler

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