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Neil

No religion and an end to war?

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Human's have been fighting for centuries, I reckon 'religion' is one of those things that are used to justify a wars and attacks, or even to drum up popular support for such actions. Most friction boils down to other factors such as natural resources, oppression, geo-politics, although I guess religion can aggravate these.

The part about religion decreasing however is clearly true, especially in the western world - where Christianity has practically been abandoned. Someone with knowledge of the strength of religion in other continents will have to let us know if it's actually a global trend.

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The article is vastly oversimplified and seems to consist largely of quotes from people rather than genuine evidence to backup the points. It also seems to have to be have an overwhelming anti-religious slant, which actually comes across rather nastily.

Christian fundamentalism is on the rise in countries such as the United States. This has a serious risk of floating across the Atlantic, into mainstream British chuches due to a large proportion of christian media in the UK is sourced from the US. I have already seen some of this in churches I have attended and in the media.

Christianity is still the fastest growing religion in the world. Hardly been abandoned by people in the western world or otherwise.

Religions rarely have caused wars but have been used as a means to justify them. I agree with what Paulscoconutass has said.

There would be just as many wars in the world, irrepespective of whether or not religions remain powerful. People will just find another way of dividing each other up.

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I believe that religion is coming to an end. One almighty war will take place that will destroy the Earth.. and in the last minutes of Humanity, we'll realise that our Morbid fascination with death is not as imporatant as our forbidden lust for life. But by then we'll ave already destroyed ourselves and all we'll have left to face is the empty vaccuum of the afterlife.

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I believe that religion is coming to an end. One almighty war will take place that will destroy the Earth.. and in the last minutes of Humanity, we'll realise that our Morbid fascination with death is not as imporatant as our forbidden lust for life. But by then we'll ave already destroyed ourselves and all we'll have left to face is the empty vaccuum of the afterlife.

Sounds like a plot to a film, or a book.

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The article is vastly oversimplified and seems to consist largely of quotes from people rather than genuine evidence to backup the points. It also seems to have to be have an overwhelming anti-religious slant, which actually comes across rather nastily.

Christian fundamentalism is on the rise in countries such as the United States. This has a serious risk of floating across the Atlantic, into mainstream British chuches due to a large proportion of christian media in the UK is sourced from the US. I have already seen some of this in churches I have attended and in the media.

Christianity is still the fastest growing religion in the world. Hardly been abandoned by people in the western world or otherwise.

Religions rarely have caused wars but have been used as a means to justify them. I agree with what Paulscoconutass has said.

There would be just as many wars in the world, irrepespective of whether or not religions remain powerful. People will just find another way of dividing each other up.

"Religions rarely have caused wars but have been used as a means to justify them"

And what odds does it make that wars are started because they don't worship the same idols or they are the wrong colour or wear funny cloths......lets worship peace and put all religious crap behind us, the minute anyone kills another human being in the name of some god it makes that religion a nonsense..... it always makes me laugh that some religious leader gives an army or new war ship his blessing before sending them off to commit the most heinous sin, what a crock of shit.

Religion like communism will die when more people are given access to the truth, and the sooner the better.

It should be made law that all teachers & politicians are confirmed atheists and no person under the age of 18 can enter a church or purchase a religious book, they restrict peoples access to porn and I cant remember anyone starting a war in the name of readers wives...

The young and weak minded should be protected.

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"Religions rarely have caused wars but have been used as a means to justify them"

And what odds does it make that wars are started because they don't worship the same idols or they are the wrong colour or wear funny cloths......lets worship peace and put all religious crap behind us, the minute anyone kills another human being in the name of some god it makes that religion a nonsense..... it always makes me laugh that some religious leader gives an army or new war ship his blessing before sending them off to commit the most heinous sin, what a crock of shit.

Religion like communism will die when more people are given access to the truth, and the sooner the better.

It should be made law that all teachers & politicians are confirmed atheists and no person under the age of 18 can enter a church or purchase a religious book, they restrict peoples access to porn and I cant remember anyone starting a war in the name of readers wives...

The young and weak minded should be protected.

Agreed.......!

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I'm sorry, is that a direct quote from Mein Kampf, or are you paraphrasing?

What are you on about?

I believe that war is abhorrent, religious belief is nonsense and shouldn't be forced on people....its an opinion I have developed over many years which has not been fed to me as the word of some mythical being whose wrath I'll incur if I don't believe it....

So please enlighten me, what has that to do with the nazi manifesto...?

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You have exactly the same views on religion and its effect on society as Hitler had. In fact, you make him look like a liberal. You don't seem to realise that it's not religion or religious people who cause the problems per se, it's intolerant people like yourself who wish to proscribe the beliefs of others in order to further your own agenda. How dare you suggest that I couldn't be a teacher or politician just because I have religious beliefs? Do you want to paint a yellow star on my chest and smash my windows just so that everyone can see that I'm subhuman in your eyes?

Don't you see that its all a matter of opinion.... ? I don't believe in your god and have the opinion that its religion that has caused so much suffering over the centuries so therefore I am a nazi.... it didn't take you long to play that card did it?

I have no plans to persecute believers just protect the innocent until they have the tools to make up their own mind.

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Uncanny...

Oh yes....I see exactly what you mean now....???

I have no problem with you defending your beliefs or faith or whatever you want to call it.

But to defend it by making out that what I believe is in some way related to the mad rantings of the most evil tyrant who has ever lived is shocking and somehow sad and pathetic....

I have lived my life in a decent manner and have no problems with what happens after my death...(which I believe is nothing by the way)...I have never wished harm or death on anyone who doesnt believe what I do...so why dont you take a long hard look at what you are claiming and calmly get a grip...!

I am no less a person than you for not living my life believing in a supreme being who shapes how i live and promises me eternal life, i'm just another human being with an opinion...try and live with that.

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Also, the nature of 'War' itself has dramatically changed, even in the last hundred years. What used to be conflicts between elnisted armies in battlegrounds evolved into attacks on infrastructure, economies and innocent citizens. Nowadays something like the 'war on terror' (war being a misleading word because it assumes one side can win it) is pitched at entire societies fighting each other.

It is because of this, that 'states' are no longer waging war on each other, that something other than nationality is needed to distinguish sides, (capitalists, communists, islamic fundamentalists...) this is when religion is pulled in to the fray.

For two more interesting - and more substantial - theories on the future of our world check out Huntington's 'The Clash of Civilisations' or Francis Fukuyama's The End Of History. Both are actual books and shouldn't be too hard to find.

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Except that they're saying exactly the same thing...

Arguably, but only in the context you have presented that paragraph.

It might be worth mentioning here that it is generally accepted that Hitler was actually a Christian (not an Atheist or anti-religious as that paragraph might suggest) and indeed tried to use his religious beliefs as a basis among other things to help justify his fight against the Jews.

Contrast what Dave has posted above with this quote from Hitler that was said in a public speech in 1922:

"Hence today I believe that I am acting in accordance with the will of the Almighty Creator: by defending myself against the Jew, I am fighting for the work of the Lord."

Personally speaking, my thoughts on religion are best summed up by this quote (not from Hitler! But from Robert Pirsig):

"When one person suffers from a delusion it is called insanity. When many people suffer from a delusion it is called Religion."

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Except that they're saying exactly the same thing...

whatever you say genius.

@paul

i agree with that, although not necessarily the the first part; armies in the past have always been big on rape and pillage and whatnot o_O

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Arguably, but only in the context you have presented that paragraph.

It might be worth mentioning here that it is generally accepted that Hitler was actually a Christian (not an Atheist or anti-religious as that paragraph might suggest) and indeed tried to use his religious beliefs as a basis among other things to help justify his fight against the Jews.

Contrast what Dave has posted above with this quote from Hitler that was said in a public speech in 1922:

"Hence today I believe that I am acting in accordance with the will of the Almighty Creator: by defending myself against the Jew, I am fighting for the work of the Lord."

Personally speaking, my thoughts on religion are best summed up by this quote (not from Hitler! But from Robert Pirsig):

"When one person suffers from a delusion it is called insanity. When many people suffer from a delusion it is called Religion."

there you have it, all christians are nazis and liek hitler!!11

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It's strange that people who claim to be scientists blame religion for war when it seems to me that evolution predicts conflict irregardless of religion.

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Hitler was never a Christian.

Read up on the facts. Because most of the things I've read about Hitler suggest otherwise. I'm well aware a lot of Christians have tried to disassociate Hitler with their religion (such as making claims he was an Atheist) but the fact is he was brought up as a Roman Catholic and has in his own written work and speeches claimed he was a Christian. I'm not suggesting for one moment that Hitler went to Church every Sunday (and evidence suggests he didn't) but all I'm saying is that he claimed he was a follower (whether he did this just to justify his actions and win votes is another matter entirely).

It's not a comforting thought if you are a Christian, but that is the fact of the matter. Even evil men and women can follow any religion or no religion they choose. We are all very aware of the evil deeds that have been dished out in the name of religion after all.

It's worth pointing out that the quote I used was from the 1940's, by which time Hitler had stopped paying lip service to Christianity and was in the process of persecuting and executing priests and other religious functionaries.

Again, are you going to back any of these claims with evidence?

Here is another quote attributed to Hitler for you to consider, made to one of his generals Gerhard Engel in 1941: "I am now as before a Catholic and will always remain so."

I'd like to point out that I'm not "having a go" at Christianity. I'm simply trying to explain that to suggest Hitler was anti-religious is not accurate.

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I'm hoping that there is some element of misunderstanding within this thread between Graeme and Dave. Shoot me down if I'm wrong, but my interpretation of Graeme's view is not that people shouldn't be allowed to hold religious beliefs, nor is it even that people with religious beliefs should not be allowed to be teachers or politicians, albeit that was how it was worded. I think the point was that religion should not be allowed to be a part of education, or politics. In other words, the objection is not to having Faith, but to attempting to impart Faith. Graeme seems to be questioning whether a person of Faith can teach, or govern without so doing.

However I think to compare anyone with Hitler, directly or indirectly, is beyond emotive claptrap for many reasons, and has no place in any civilised debate.

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I'm hoping that there is some element of misunderstanding within this thread between Graeme and Dave. Shoot me down if I'm wrong, by interpretation of Graeme's view is not that people shouldn't be allowed to hold religious beliefs, nor is it even that people with religious beliefs should not be allowed to be teachers or politicians, albeit that was how it was worded. I think the point was that religion should not be allowed to be a part of education, or politics. In other words, the objection is not to having Faith, but to attempting to impart Faith. Graeme seems to be questioning whether a person of Faith can teach, or govern without so doing.

However I think to compare anyone with Hitler, directly or indirectly, is beyond emotive claptrap for many reasons, and has no place in any civilised debate.

personally i thought graeme was taking the piss in that post, mainly because he suggested people should have to be 18 to enter a church. suggesting teachers and politicians should be legally atheist was the only part of that post which talked about restricting religion, and comparing it to nazism was an overeaction of awesome proportions :popcorn:

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I'm hoping that there is some element of misunderstanding within this thread between Graeme and Dave. Shoot me down if I'm wrong, by interpretation of Graeme's view is not that people shouldn't be allowed to hold religious beliefs, nor is it even that people with religious beliefs should not be allowed to be teachers or politicians, albeit that was how it was worded. I think the point was that religion should not be allowed to be a part of education, or politics. In other words, the objection is not to having Faith, but to attempting to impart Faith. Graeme seems to be questioning whether a person of Faith can teach, or govern without so doing.

However I think to compare anyone with Hitler, directly or indirectly, is beyond emotive claptrap for many reasons, and has no place in any civilised debate.

A...ha....someone gets my post with an un-biased eye....I love you.

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Well, when you type out a bigoted rant about people of faith not being allowed to play a full part in society, and blame all the ills of the world on those who hold different beliefs from you, what am I supposed to think?

I've lived a good life as well, and my own spiritual beliefs are my business. For some reason you want to make me a second-class citizen because of my beliefs, though. If I can't run for election because of my beliefs, can I still vote? Is that OK, or didn't you think of that?

You're perfectly entitled to your opinion, regardless of how intolerant and illiberal it is. However, I have the right to hold you to account. You obviously can't live with the fact that people disagree with you and see the world in a different way.

There have been people like you, throughout history, who have held high office in both religious and secular organisations. It is their intolerance and small mindedness that has been the cause of most of the wars fought through the ages, not the faith of ordinary people.

You are ranting like a complete lunatic and reading all sorts of shit into my post that was never meant nor implied... please refer to frosties post and get real.

I cant help but feel you do neither your faith or yourself any favours.

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Wars have largely been fought to benefit those in power and their friends. Whether it be to benefit the industrial millitary complex, the slave trade or oil companies. I suspect even if we looked into the crusades we would see a whole list of buisnesses who benefits from them.

I don't believe Religion causes war. Man causes war and whatever religion a man follows, he is responsible for his actions, irrespective of what he believes his religion asks for him.

There is a regular column in the Guardian titled 'bad Science.' This aims to dispell popular myths which have made their way into science. We have many such equivelants in religions such as Christianity. A few hundred years ago, witch burning was concidered the norm. With intellectual discussion and debate such a practice has ended in Britain. Today, certain beliefs about the rapture and the end of time, which are widely viewed in theology circles to have no solid routes in the bible are popular. The same is true throughout all religions. People will use their religions to justify modern day witch hunts.

I do not see it fair to conclude soley from this that the religion is at fault, it only proves certain people are at fault with their own actions.

I believe what GraemeC may have been referring to was Ethnic Cleansing which has been going on for 1000s of years. There are cases, in Africa where no religion was a factor, other methods were used to divide people up into groups so they would kill each other.

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Wars have largely been fought to benefit those in power and their friends. Whether it be to benefit the industrial millitary complex, the slave trade or oil companies. I suspect even if we looked into the crusades we would see a whole list of buisnesses who benefits from them.

I don't believe Religion causes war. Man causes war and whatever religion a man follows, he is responsible for his actions, irrespective of what he believes his religion asks for him.

There is a regular column in the Guardian titled 'bad Science.' This aims to dispell popular myths which have made their way into science. We have many such equivelants in religions such as Christianity. A few hundred years ago, witch burning was concidered the norm. With intellectual discussion and debate such a practice has ended in Britain. Today, certain beliefs about the rapture and the end of time, which are widely viewed in theology circles to have no solid routes in the bible are popular. The same is true throughout all religions. People will use their religions to justify modern day witch hunts.

I do not see it fair to conclude soley from this that the religion is at fault, it only proves certain people are at fault with their own actions.

I believe what GraemeC may have been referring to was Ethnic Cleansing which has been going on for 1000s of years. There are cases, in Africa where no religion was a factor, other methods were used to divide people up into groups so they would kill each other.

I find it strange that people of conservative religious belief seem to want to either hide from or justify the killing that has occured in the name of someones god....

Its all well and good calling one people slaughtering another ethnic cleansing, but isnt it funny how they seldom share the same religion. Even people who share the same core beliefs seem to want to exterminate each other....its all very silly.

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