god created the heavens and earth

[framheim]

sorry if this has already been said, but i think that science pretty much makes this arguement pointless since scientists are pretty much on their way to theorizing everything, and whoever said it was created 2007 years ago?!?!!?

you've kinda contradicted yourself there by saying science makes the argument pointless but then pointing out that a lot of science is theoretical.

also the year 2007 refers to AD 2007 , Anno Domino(in the year of our lord). this refers to Jesus and is a measure of time based on the traditionally recognised birthdate of Jesus. anything before this is BC, before christ. Christians do concede that things happened before Christ came on the scene. Dinosaurs are another matter though

[Old Gold]

No, not the dinosaurs!

[Addi]

also the year 2007 refers to AD 2007 , Anno Domino(in the year of our lord). this refers to Jesus and is a measure of time based on the traditionally recognised birthdate of Jesus. anything before this is BC, before christ. Christians do concede that things happened before Christ came on the scene. Dinosaurs are another matter though

it would suck if we had to write the date starting from when the earth was formed. so i think we can all thank jesus for that.

09/01/4,567,002,007

[Neil]

09/01/4,567,002,007

Surely it would be 09/01/07 ?

[nullmouse]

you've kinda contradicted yourself there by saying science makes the argument pointless but then pointing out that a lot of science is theoretical.

Semantics! A scientific 'theory' has a different meaning than the standard english usage - For example, normally when someone says they have a 'theory' they often mean a 'hunch', whilst a scientific 'theory' is a construct that explains a group of facts.

[lepeep]

This is why I don't understand why people have religious beliefs at all. You're trying to say that all matter exists because it was created by someone. But as to where the someone came from, well, he 'just exists'. Why not just say that all matter 'just exists'? The God part just seems to be an unnecessary layer of confusion. What benefit is there in that?

I'm not having a go, but I really don't understand what a lot of religious people get out of it. How does believing in something that will never be proved actually enrich their lives? Materially? Or does just believing in something make you happy? I don't understand why so much time and effort is put into deciding (and arguing) why and how everything exists, when we should probably just be happy that it does.

Anyway, if we're talking the whole universe here, (which I guess we must be unless we are back to believing that nothing exists above the sky) then to be honest we humans are such an unbelievably small dot that who cares what is stirring in our tiny minds?

Want to see how small? -

Major Scale

butting in here, I must apologise, I've not read all the arguments, but here's what I've heard richard dawkings impart (in so many words):

it's funny how religious people do not believe in evolution, because some of the theories still need scientific rigour and critical analysis to make them water tight....so do religious people hold their own beliefs to scientific rigour and scrutiny?....nope, far from it.

so, "good for the goose, is not good for the gander" certainly is the case when arguing religious Vs scientific views of the world.

me, I believe in science, (but who's to say that "god" (whoever "he" is ( patriarchal or what?)) can't fit into a scientific model?)

I can just imagine that "god" has fucked off and left us all, as he's so fed up with how sad we are all at arguing "who or what" (it) is.

[framheim]

Semantics! A scientific 'theory' has a different meaning than the standard english usage - For example, normally when someone says they have a 'theory' they often mean a 'hunch', whilst a scientific 'theory' is a construct that explains a group of facts.

well, that's your theory and you're sticking to it right?

surely that's a very simplistic view of the definition of scientific theory? particularly when science is very much an evolving discipline. what was scientific fact 100 years ago may not be now. but yes, of course scientific theories are based on more than just hunches. they do experiments and stuff to right?

i have an urge to watch the first series of look around you now. thanks alun, thalun.

[Neil]

It's a question of perception, born of revelation.

...or delusion. Depending on what side of the fence you are on.

[Neil]

As Paul Simon said, one man's ceiling is another man's floor. I don't think there are two people in this world who perceive the world in exactly the same way.

I can certainly agree with that.

[Frosty Jack]

Can I stop you right there? Thanks. It's not fair to lump all religious people into the creationist camp, because many, if not most people of faith accept that the universe is much, much older than the creationists would have everyone believe. It's near impossible to refute the theory of evolution, and I myself have no problem with the fact that mankind descended from the lower primates. What the Bible and other religious texts teach us is that there is an order to the universe and that God is the instigator and occasional protagonist of the events that occur within it. It's impossible to say how large or small a part humanity plays in God's grand scheme, if indeed there is a scheme at all.

It's possible to stand in both camps. I always find the quote from Galileo comforting;

"I do not feel obliged to believe that the same God who endowed us with sense, reason, and intellect intended us to forgo their use."

So it's not a question of God versus Science. God created Science. Is that it?

Does that go as far as believing in the big bang? Can one believe in both?

[GraemeC]

As Paul Simon said, one man's ceiling is another man's floor.

Ok...I see the problem here Dave, if I ever met anyone who thought my ceiling was his floor and could prove it, it may indeed sway my opinion, but until then I'm keeping my feet firmly on the floor....thats the bit covered in carpet where all the furniture is, in case you werent sure.

G...

[Cloud]

So it's not a question of God versus Science. God created Science. Is that it?

Does that go as far as believing in the big bang? Can one believe in both?

I'm somewhat agnostic, but one possibility that keeps occuring to me is that it seems very possible that the whole thing is created by a god of some sort - who could be doing whatever the hell it wanted, including messing with us in various ways.

I think it's entirely possible to believe that something was there before the big bang - for all we know, there may not have been a big bang at all. I do think though, that it's entirely believable for God and Science to exist - why not, after all? If someone is insanely powerful enough to have created all this, then they're bound to be powerful enough to make up some science based stuff.

I am convinced however that we know fuck all about science in the grand scheme of things.

[framheim]

I am convinced however that we know fuck all about science in the grand scheme of things.

i think the problem is that despite thousands of years of education, experimentation and philosophising we still know fuck all about a lot of things, not just science. for all we know god is hiding in some uncharted part of deep see laughing at us as we run round in circles, like some demented game of deity hide and seek.

at least science offers some answers based on sound reasoning and logic. i think that's the big selling point for those who haven't had a religious revelation. it's very hard to have that faith without having actually been in contact with god. certainly from my point of view anyway, it's just always been a leap too far.

[Addi]

i think the problem is that despite thousands of years of education, experimentation and philosophising we still know fuck all about a lot of things, not just science. for all we know god is hiding in some uncharted part of deep see laughing at us as we run round in circles, like some demented game of deity hide and seek.

Ph'nglui mglw'nafh Cthulhu R'lyeh wgah'nagl fhtagn lolz

[Guest bluesxman]

for all we know god is hiding in some uncharted part of deep see laughing at us as we run round in circles, like some demented game of deity hide and seek.

What, like the Kraken in Clash Of The Titans?

[nullmouse]

surely that's a very simplistic view of the definition of scientific theory? particularly when science is very much an evolving discipline. what was scientific fact 100 years ago may not be now. but yes, of course scientific theories are based on more than just hunches. they do experiments and stuff to right?

I think you're maybe confusing a hypothesis with a theory - Scientists have a hypothesis to explain a phenomenon and then set out to test that hypothesis. If the hypothesis is correct, then it contributes to scientific theory. Theories are always based on observation and fact, and predict how something will behave.

Scientific theories, however, can be adapted and changed as the ability to make observsations increases - But they're always based on facts.

i have an urge to watch the first series of look around you now. thanks alun, thalun.

The first season was by far the best

[nullmouse]

It's not fair to lump all religious people into the creationist camp, because many, if not most people of faith accept that the universe is much, much older than the creationists would have everyone believe. It's near impossible to refute the theory of evolution, and I myself have no problem with the fact that mankind descended from the lower primates. What the Bible and other religious texts teach us is that there is an order to the universe and that God is the instigator and occasional protagonist of the events that occur within it. It's impossible to say how large or small a part humanity plays in God's grand scheme, if indeed there is a scheme at all.

I think I've mentioned a few times in my replies that I know several people that have no problem dedicating their career to science without compromising their religious beliefs, so I agree wholeheartedly with Dave. As good as Dawkins is at raising the public awareness of science, I find his anti-religion diatribes somewhat arrogant and overly dismissive. I'm sure the God Delusion is a thoroughly entertaining personal perspective from Dawkins, but I've read a few articles that really slam his understanding of religion.

[AKMartin]

Dawkins basically says,

"Here's what I think: if you disagree, you're clearly an idiot and not worth talking to."

Most of The God Delusion could have been written by any aggrieved teenager with a laptop and a grudge.

AKM

[Bass Cadet]

Well there is a bit of a misprint in the bible...... this is how it really happened......

In the beginning there was a bass. It was a Fender, probably a

precision, but it could have been a jazz; nobody knows.

And God looked down upon it and saw that it was good. He saw that it

was very good, in fact, and couldn't be improved on at all (though

men would later try). And so He let it be, and created a man to play

the bass. And lo the man looked upon the bass, which was a beautiful

"Sunburst" red, and he loved it. He played upon the E string and

the note rang through the Earth and reverberated throughout the

firmament (thus reverb came to be), and it was good. God heard that it

was good, and He smiled at His handiwork.

Then in the course of time, the man came to slap upon the bass, and lo,

it was funky. And God heard this funkiness and said, "Go, man,

go!". And it, too, was good.

And more time passed, and having little else to do, the man came to

practice upon the bass. And lo, the man came to have upon him a great

set of chops, and he did play faster and faster until the notes rippled

like a breeze throughout the heavens.

And God heard this sound which sounded something like the wind, which

He had created earlier. It also sounded something like the moving of

furniture, which He hadn't even created yet, and He was not so

pleased, and He spoke to the man, saying, "Don't do that!".

Now the man heard the voice of God, but he was so excited about this

new ability that he slapped upon the bass a blizzard of funky notes.

And the heavens shook with the sound, and the Angels ran about in

confusion. (Some of the Angels started to dance, but that's another

story.)

And God heard this - how could He miss it - and lo, He became bugged.

And He spoke to the man, and He said, "Listen, man, if I wanted Jimi

Hendrix, I would have created the guitar. Stick to the bass parts!"

And the man heard the voice of God, and he knew not to mess with it.

But now he had upon him a passion for playing fast and high. The man

took the frets off the bass which God had created, and the man did

slide his fingers along the fretless fingerboard and played melodies

high upon the neck. And in his excitement, the man did forget the

commandment of the Lord, and he played a frenzy of high melodies and

blindingly fast licks. And the heavens rocked with the assault, and the

Earth shook, rattled and rolled.

Now God's wrath was great, and His voice was like thunder as He spoke

to the man. And He said, "O.K. for you, Dude. you have not heeded my

word. If I wanted 20 Buddy Emmons, I would have created the steel

guitar. Lo, I shall create a soprano Saxophone and it shall play

highter and faster than you can even imagine!

"And out of the chaos I shall bring forth the drums. And they shall

play so many notes thine head shall ache, and I shall make you to

always stand next to the drummer. And you think you're loud? I shall

create a stack of Marsall guitar amps to make thine ears bleed. And I

shall send down upon the Earth other instruments and lo, they shall all

be able to play higher and faster than the bass!

And for all the days of man, your curse shall be this: that all the

other musicians shall look to you, the bass player, for the low notes.

And if you play too high or fast, all the other musicians shall say,

"Wow", but really they shall hate it. And they tell you you're

ready for your solo career, and find other bass players for their

bands. And for all your days, if you want to play your fancy licks, you

shall have to sneak them in like a thief in the night. And finally, if

you do get to play a solo, everyone shall leave the bandstand and go to

the bar for a drink.

And it was so.

Well makes as much sense as the bible.........

Personally I reckon that without religion we would have world peace.... well maybe not, but you have to admit, there have been a lot of religious wars.....

[Frosty Jack]

but you have to admit, there have been a lot of religious wars.....

Namely...?

[GraemeC]

Dawkins basically says,

Who he...?

[Alkaline]

Namely...?

Yeah, i'm quite willing to bet that there's been more non-religious wars than there have been religious wars....

[Old Gold]

But Jimi Hendrix IS God...

[framheim]

But Jimi Hendrix IS God...

*raises spanisharmada's arm aloft*

WINNER!

[Frosty Jack]

But Jimi Hendrix IS God...

*resumes hostilities with The Claptonites*