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Industry warned over ticket touting

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for starters this will probably increase the price of tickets.

I think for every show there is round about 5 to 7% of the audience that have bought tickets but don`t end up making the gig...

As a promoter the "profit" is usually made in the final 10%

thus if up to 7% return tickets then the promoter technically stands to make money with 3%

It is a fairly widespread situation that the promoter takes the risk to make very little profit from the final 10% but will absorb 100% of losses if something doesn`t work..

Chances are it'll mean that promoters will be slightly less willing to take on a show unless they are certain that it will recoup.....

Arguably it may be better to always make sure that there is a quota of tickets that are available to buy in person andlimit this to two at a time.

I know that when i was up in Aberdeen i made a conscience effort to have tickets on sale from an outlet aswell as online and also to make sure that at least one outlet was booking fee free.

Following the move south this has continued and i know that DF's CEO Geoff Ellis is adamant that DF want to have an outlet where booking fee is not charged or is as little as possible for all of their shows.

Maybe this is a panel at a Foyer Music session........ ~ Dave Stewart ?

Apologies if i`m rambling.

rm

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Actually.. this is a bit sci-fi and also a bit hare-brained but what about this:

As a Live Music Fan you can opt into a scheme which costs £10.

You fill in a form that has your name / age and date of birth and submit a photo (passport style). Also included is a password.

then this is put onto a card with a bar code..... Everytime you buy a ticket it is added onto this card. Thus you have all of the tickets that you have purchased stored on the card. When you walk into a venue then you scan the card to exchange tickets.

As a member of such a scheme you are entitled to certain pre-sales etc but are restricted to 4 tickets max.

This way you are trackable through the system so if you are an Honest music fan you are rewarded.

I actually justthought of all of this now and typed straight from my thoughts... so apologies for further ramblings... but you get the just.

rm

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The problems are with shows that WILL sell out (who's going to buy from a tout when you can get tickets at face value), and these tickets are normally sold so far in advance you'd need a crystal ball to be sure you're free to go.

Maybe an alternative would be to do returns, but not until the show is sold out. Also, keeping a "stand-by" list for the first maybe 10% who failed to get a ticket initially would ensure these returns will get sold. Perhaps stop doing returns in the last 2 weeks before the gig as well, cos it would be a nightmare getting tickets to people on a shorter time scale.

This seems fair to me, genuine music fans will be able to get a refund, people on the stand by list won't bother going to touts if they think they'll maybe get a return, the touts will have to sit on their tickets until just before the show, tying up their capital and the promoters are still pretty much guaranteed a sell out.

It's not perfect, but it would put things more in favour of the real fans and should be fairly easy and cheap to implement. Also, it won't affect smaller gigs that aren't expected to sell out.

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... and they should stop people selling tickets on e-bay

its an absolute joke

hundreds of summer festival tickets at inflated prices

festivals "sell out" in like 1 day

then you find half the tickets are on e-bay

or in some cases not on e-bay at all... just people scammin innocent gig goers

boo i say!

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Being able to return tickets for the fce value is fine and well, but who out there is going to return their ticket for t in the park or whatever for face value when they find they can't make it, when they could sell privatly for a huge profit on top?

This does absolutely nothing for the people out there buying and selling to purely make a profit, and only helps the innocent people who just want to not lose any money when they have to sell on tickets

Some form of exchange could be a cool idea, letting people easily get rid of what they don't want for credit towards other shows or whatever, but again, that only helps the small people who are not out for a profit

David

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The Concert Promoters Association to set up a website allowing fans to exchange tickets at face value

The easiest way for them to fulfil this part of the plan would be to buy over scarlet mist which does this and is an offically recognised source for reselling T in the Park tickets.

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I get really pi$$ed off with people who buy tickets and then sell them for a profit. I work away from home, and on several occasions have had tickets for gigs that I've had to miss due to getting a call to go away - 2005 T in the Park springs to mind. However, I always sale the tickets for how much I bought them for.

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It is a fairly widespread situation that the promoter takes the risk to make very little profit from the final 10% but will absorb 100% of losses if something doesn`t work..

Chances are it'll mean that promoters will be slightly less willing to take on a show unless they are certain that it will recoup.....

To be fair though' date=' there's no risk in booking someone like Morrissey or putting on a high-profile festival, and these are the kind of tickets that suddenly appear on eBay for 100% markup seconds after "selling out".

"The vast majority of people selling online are selling for personal reasons, normally because they cannot attend an event," he said.

I hope the man who said this doesn't HONESTLY believe his own bullshit.

Touting football tickets in England and Wales is prohibited under criminal law. Surely there can be some law against reselling concert tickets over face value? I'm pretty sure touting is supposed to be illegal in Scotland already mind, and I've yet to see a policeman outside a concert making an easy arrest. What they should do is make it illegal to sell tickets for more than face value, then police this by going on eBay every now and again and winning the ticket auctions. Then instead of sending a cheque, send a bobby round to their door and nick them. They wouldn't fucking bother though.

What I find hilarious, however, are the touts who say they are doing people a service, because they're "selling tickets to people who couldn't get originally". THEY COULDN'T GET THEM BECAUSE TWATS LIKE YOU BOUGHT THEM ALL UP IN THE FIRST PLACE!!!

Has anyone ever heard a tout outside a gig who WASN'T English?

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To be fair though' date=' there's no risk in booking someone like Morrissey or putting on a high-profile festival, and these are the kind of tickets that suddenly appear on eBay for 100% markup seconds after "selling out".

[/quote']

But once you give legitimate fans the chance to return their tickets ,everyone else IS a tout, which makes it easier for Ebay etc to crack down on them (which they damn well should)

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But once you give legitimate fans the chance to return their tickets ' date='everyone else IS a tout, which makes it easier for Ebay etc to crack down on them (which they damn well should)[/quote']

I forgot to add, I thought your idea was pretty good :p

Let's face it though, eBay will never EVER crack down on touts without some form of legislation forcing their hand - the profit margins from concert tickets sold for 2357945897124741.73 are too tempting for them to ignore.

Bastards...

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To be fair though' date=' there's no risk in booking someone like Morrissey or putting on a high-profile festival, and these are the kind of tickets that suddenly appear on eBay for 100% markup seconds after "selling out".

[/quote']

Actually there is a risk with ALL artists.

EG.. you book Oasis for 3 nights at the SECC.... put them onsale online and expect the whole lot to go in a day....

Say the first night (Saturday) sells straight away and the sunday does pretty well but the monday is slow....

You then have to advertise the shows and if you`ve not got anything in budget then you are eating into the profits...

NOTHING is cut n dried....

ross

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I forgot to add' date=' I thought your idea was pretty good :p

Let's face it though, eBay will never EVER crack down on touts without some form of legislation forcing their hand - the profit margins from concert tickets sold for 2357945897124741.73 are too tempting for them to ignore.

Bastards...[/quote']

They're hiding behind the fact that some legitimate tickets are sold (people who find out they can't go to the gig, or are just plain skint and need some cash) at the moment.

They could put a cap on the price (e.g. no more than 110% of face value), restrict the number of tickets sold by a user in a month, only sell tickets in the month before the gig, stuff like that which doesn't inconvenience genuine gig goers too much but is a major pain in the arse for the touts.

An interesting question is: How many people have become touts because of Ebay; buying more tickets than they need because they know they can sell them at a tidy profit?

I think once the industry provides a means for people to get a refund, the government should then give Ebay the same ultimatum, i.e. sort yourselves out or we'll come in and do it for you, cos there will then be no reason for ebay to sell tickets.

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Actually there is a risk with ALL artists.

EG.. you book Oasis for 3 nights at the SECC.... put them onsale online and expect the whole lot to go in a day....

Say the first night (Saturday) sells straight away and the sunday does pretty well but the monday is slow....

You then have to advertise the shows and if you`ve not got anything in budget then you are eating into the profits...

NOTHING is cut n dried....

ross

I knew I should have kept that as "there's surely no risk..." ;)

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Should it not be considered that maybe, the industry doesn't really want to stop ticket touting? Look at how it works - if touts buy all the non-refundable tickets up, then the promoter is guaranteed their money. If they now have to process refunds, nothing will be a guarantee anymore - which is bound to have a knock-on effect on risks being taken.

They could restrict the selling of tickets to face value plus a little bit on top - but surely touts would then just operate through a foreign service - ebay.ie, anyone? And of course, that won't stop touting outside venues - so what use is it?

The only way to really stop touting is to print names on tickets, allow name changes up to an hour before the performance (but not refunds, given the consequences of allowing them) and demand mandatory ID to use the tickets. All of which increases the cost of tickets - meaning that we'll be be back to where we started beforehand.

My prediction : nothing will change.

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Should it not be considered that maybe' date=' the industry doesn't really want to stop ticket touting? Look at how it works - if touts buy all the non-refundable tickets up, then the promoter is guaranteed their money. If they now have to process refunds, nothing will be a guarantee anymore - which is bound to have a knock-on effect on risks being taken..[/quote']

I'd hazzard a guess they are looking at the more extreme tout mark-ups & are going green with envy! If they could get away with that level of profiteering, I've little doubt they would.

Also there are plenty of ways to scupper the requirement to refund, unless it is specified as no-cost. eg, try asking certain airlines to refund you airport tax if you can't take a flight. You are unquestionably entitled to get the tax back but they will charge you an "administration" fee to do it that will cost you several times its value.

All-in, I'd suggest a reappraisal of promoters tactics from the ground-up. Far too much of the process seems to be dedicated to making as much money off you as possible whilst giving you the shittiest service they can get away with. :(

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All-in' date=' I'd suggest a reappraisal of promoters tactics from the ground-up. Far too much of the process seems to be dedicated to making as much money off you as possible whilst giving you the shittiest service they can get away with. :([/quote']

Too true. Just I example of many - The 1st TITP only cost 22.50 (I know it's a few years back) My wages have only doubled since then, but the tickets have gone up by 500% (or so) How can they justify that!

I don't think there is a way to stop touts. they will always find a way.........

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The only way to really stop touting is to print names on tickets' date=' allow name changes up to an hour before the performance (but not refunds, given the consequences of allowing them) and demand mandatory ID to use the tickets. All of which increases the cost of tickets - meaning that we'll be be back to where we started beforehand.

[/quote']

So touts would just change the names to the person buying from them, then?

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Too true. Just I example of many - The 1st TITP only cost £22.50

Don't statr me on those particular guys! :swearing:

Old wounds I'm afraid. :(

Still, my first two sets of TITP tickets were free. Nowadays, I & quite a few friends of the time, wouldn't piss on them if they were on fire, unless of course we could piss petrol!

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So touts would just change the names to the person buying from them' date=' then?[/quote']

No doubt they would, in the beginning. But with names comes a database - and if they spot large amounts of tickets all getting name changed, it's pretty obvious they're being touted, giving the promoters a way to effectively blacklist the touts.

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No doubt they would' date=' in the beginning. But with names comes a database - and if they spot large amounts of tickets all getting name changed, it's pretty obvious they're being touted, giving the promoters a way to effectively blacklist the touts.[/quote']

I think most promoters like all this hype. they might make a token gesture statement about how much they dislike the touts because they stop the true fans getting tickets etc etc, but hey, let's face it, if people thought that they could get a TITP ticket no problem, say up until 2 weeks before the gig, they would dowdle about for months before getting round to ordering them. However, because everyone who would like to go is worried about not getttng a ticket (partly due to lowlifes buying tickets only to sell on) they get into a ticket frenzy. The result, all tickets sold out in a matter of hours. GREAT BUSINESS.

It's not just gig tickets that get this treatment. Check the list below for 'hyped sales' excuss me if the names are not correct, or a little bit cheesy, but you get the picture.

Buzz Lightyear

Playstations

Cabbage Patch Dolls

the list could go on and on, and gets bigger every year.

There only one loser in this game, and it's the buying public

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Should it not be considered that maybe' date=' the industry doesn't really want to stop ticket touting? Look at how it works - if touts buy all the non-refundable tickets up, then the promoter is guaranteed their money. If they now have to process refunds, nothing will be a guarantee anymore - which is bound to have a knock-on effect on risks being taken.

They could restrict the selling of tickets to face value plus a little bit on top - but surely touts would then just operate through a foreign service - ebay.ie, anyone? And of course, that won't stop touting outside venues - so what use is it?

The only way to really stop touting is to print names on tickets, allow name changes up to an hour before the performance (but not refunds, given the consequences of allowing them) and demand mandatory ID to use the tickets. All of which increases the cost of tickets - meaning that we'll be be back to where we started beforehand.

My prediction : nothing will change.[/quote']

Exactly. Apart from the gig-going public, no one actually gives a shit what happens as long as money is being exchanged.

Perhaps the artists themselves could do something to help? I'm not entirely sure what, but presumably after the people who don't get tickets - or have to pay extortionate prices for them - the artists are the next most concerned party. After all, if folk start getting put off gigs because of touts' prices, or the only people turning up are people with money but no real appreciation for the music, a band's gigs are going to become really boring to play. So it's in their interests to ensure their fans aren't getting shafted.

One idea (although not entirely feasible): tickets are only sold to fan club members (free membership of course). Admission to the fan club depends on going through stringent measures to prove you're a genuine fan and not just someone wanting easy access to tickets, and tickets are limited to two per fan club member. A bit like the NIN fan club then, except free. It would mean having to be joined to the fan club of every single band you possibly think you might want to see though, and you're possibly a bit fucked if it's a band you're only just getting into.

Any better ideas?

Of course, we could just wait till the government pushes through ID cards and use them - rather than having tickets, you'd just get your ID card scanned and the venue's database would match you to the list of people who are registered as having bought tickets...

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