Vote B.N.P.

[Old Gold]

I haven't read their manifesto' date=' nor do I pay much attention to their tactics. I'm not in a position to condemn them - so I'd rather stick to discussing their democractic rights[/quote']

Does your ignorance give you the right to champion them though?

You obviously see the funny side of winding people up, but you should seriously research their policies before defending the BNP in any way. Why should their human rights be protected when they are happy to shit all over other peoples'?

[GraemeC]

Why shouldn't they be given credibility? They have arguably made the most of their resources by targetting councils that they know they can win seats in - and let's not forget that they made significant inroads at the European Parliament elections in 2004. I'm not sure about how they did as a whole in the 2005 UK elections' date=' though. Ultimately, they've played it very cleverly. They could be arguably said to be the 5th UK party along with Respect, after all.

If you notice, I haven't discussed the BNP's policies. I haven't read their manifesto, nor do I pay much attention to their tactics. I'm not in a position to condemn them - so I'd rather stick to discussing their democractic rights and the possibility of them becoming a credible right wing alternative.

Why is it completely foolish? The SSP and the Greens were both minority parties who have skillfully managed to increase their stature and reputation to a point where (combined) they represent 10% of the seats in Holyrood. The BNP might very well adapt and achieve some sort of success - after all, they are appealing to ordinary people, just as the SSP and Greens have both done.

Ian Paisley is quite probably worse than the BNP. The fact that he's now in a position where he could be a potential First Minister of Northern Ireland (especially with Hain attempting to push through an assembly that no-one appears to want) is frightening - but just shows that extremists will be popular. Again, I'm not too sure what exactly the BNP has done - but I'd be inclined to believe that Paisley has done a lot worse than they have - except it's limited to Northern Ireland and parts of Scotland.

Completely and utterly agreed. It could be argued that UKIP imploded due to their refusal to let Kilroy take over the party - which, given that he was their star asset, was quite probably a bad move in hindsight. His own party did badly too - but then again, they were starting from nothing as opposed to something with UKIP.

To be fair, it's almost impossible for any party to become a real force in the UK Parliament. The FPTP system pretty much stands against them - so although the SNP and Plaid Cymru both gain a fair bit of votes, their representation is massively out of proportion to the vote. The same will stop the BNP from ever becoming a real force - although if the prospect of a future Lab-Lib coalition arises (which it might after the next election), then I wouldn't be surprised if the Lib Dems insist on a change to a form of PR in order for Labour to keep their grip on power.

Out of interest, why is it unacceptable for the BNP to win council seats? Last time I checked, we lived in a democracy - and if they win those seats fairly (or not so fairly..dirty tricks are nothing new in politics), how can anyone really complain? After all, people would've had to have voted for them.

The broadsheets are just as bad when it comes to it - they just dress it up in more formal language.

Thing is, it all goes back to democracy and human rights - the tabloid message appeals to the majority, therefore, their message is the most dominant. It might suck, but the alternative is a dictatorship.[/quote']

As per usual cloud you seem to be missing the point by about 1000miles......

They are facist animals surrounded by neo nazi supporters who dont deserve to live let alone get involved in the day to day running of the country.

[Cloud]

Does your ignorance give you the right to champion them though?

Does your ignorance give you the right to say that I'm championing them? Have you actually read my posts? I think the BNP are appalling on the basis of their British name - why would I want to champion a party that stands up for something that I believe in the ending of (the British state)? Obviously not standing up and denouncing them immediately makes me a fascist for daring to suggest that they have the same rights as everyone else' date=' though...

You obviously see the funny side of winding people up, but you should seriously research their policies before defending the BNP in any way. Why should their human rights be protected when they are happy to shit all over other peoples'?

Have you ever read the text of the European Convention on Human Rights? If not, go away and read it, then come back and tell me that you honestly think that people should be denied their rights on the basis of their opinion being unpopular.

To be honest, I don't have much interest in their policies - as far as I see it, the BNP are a legal party and therefore they have the same human rights as I do. There's no argument as far as I can see - as long as they don't break the law, what's the problem? They might be dubious right wingers, but heck, there's plenty of them in Europe.

Amusingly, the BNP logo appears to be similar to the DUP's. Again, wonder what the difference is between the two parties in reality, apart from one being the largest party in Northern Ireland and therefore not easy to shut up and the other not being very important at all. Apparently the BNP has had links to paramilitary organisations in Northern Ireland - so has the DUP. So why aren't people calling for Paisley to be banned? Perhaps having a mandate given to you by the people makes your message in some way more valid...

But while we're generalising - aren't Sinn Fein a bunch of terrorists? It's a fact that some Sinn Fein members have a less than squeaky clean history. Heck, their deputy leader has admitted to being in charge when Bloody Sunday happened - and the same man and the leader of the party are well known to being on the IRA's Army Council...so does that mean the entire party is a bunch of marxist terrorists? of course not, so why generalise about the BNP?

As per usual cloud you seem to be missing the point by about 1000miles......

They are facist animals surrounded by neo nazi supporters who dont deserve to live let alone get involved in the day to day running of the country.

All 7000+ members are, hmm? What about the 808200 people who voted BNP in the European Elections in 2004? Or the 192,850 in 2005?

Could someone provide me with evidence that the entire BNP is made up of "fascist animals surrounded by neo nazis"? Or is it just an image promoted by the mass media?

No wonder Labour's succeeding in stripping people's rights from them...

edit : the scary, scary thing about all of this is that if people spent less time spreading hysteric "facts" about the BNP and more time helping other people defeat the BNP at the polls, it's unlikely that we would even be discussing them now.

[New Found Power]

What the hell, Cloud.

What the hell.

[GraemeC]

All 7000+ members are' date=' hmm? What about the 808200 people who voted BNP in the European Elections in 2004? Or the 192,850 in 2005?

Could someone provide me with evidence that the entire BNP is made up of "fascist animals surrounded by neo nazis"? Or is it just an image promoted by the mass media?

...[/quote']

I seem to remember another political party who gained a bit of success by using hatred of anything non white anglo-saxon, they too seemed to have lots of supporters who like dressing in black, the bulk of their membership I believe was made up of ordinary joes like you and me.

I think the human rights of the black and Asian population of this country far outweigh the rights of racist bastards like the BNP.

[dougfast]

i was going to join this arguement because i know people will take my views the wrong way and call me some kind of nazi or whatever but what the heck

i would vote b.n.p as i belive this country going to turn in to the next yugoslavia, i dont want that to happen.

and i am leaving it at that

[GraemeC]

i was going to join this arguement because i know people will take my views the wrong way and call me some kind of nazi or whatever but what the heck

i would vote b.n.p as i belive this country going to turn in to the next yugoslavia' date=' i dont want that to happen.

and i am leaving it at that[/quote']

So what do you believe the BNP would do for you if they attained power?

[Cloud]

i would vote b.n.p as i belive this country going to turn in to the next yugoslavia' date=' i dont want that to happen.[/quote']

I think so too. I know Wales isn't exactly full of pro-independence types, but they could be caught up in it (like Macedonia did and like how Montengro is), but Scotland and Northern Ireland have a very real possibility of breaking away at some point in the next 20-30 years. The conditions aren't right in Scotland for independence - although we're seeing things differ, they're not different *enough* for it to realistically happen, though I'll be doing my part to try and make it happen as soon as possible.

As for Northern Ireland - simply put, the nationalist birth rate is higher than the unionist birth rate. I can't remeber where (must be the Belfast Agreement though) it says it, but Northern Ireland was given the right to self determination - which says that at some point in the next 50 yeasr on current evidence, there'll be a nationalist majority and therefore reunification will occur with Ireland.

So yeah, I wouldn't be terribly surprised to see a Yugoslav-style breakup at some point. I dare say the Conservatives and UKIP would do similar things to the BNP would in order to prevent it, though.

and i am leaving it at that

Please don't, because that's a really interesting viewpoint. I don't agree with the sentiment, but you're entitled to believe in it.

[Alvin Starclusk]

i was going to join this arguement because i know people will take my views the wrong way and call me some kind of nazi or whatever but what the heck

i would vote b.n.p as i belive this country going to turn in to the next yugoslavia' date=' i dont want that to happen.

and i am leaving it at that[/quote']

Heh heh! Genius! Next Yugoslavia! Brilliant.

And Cloud - if your main objection to the BNP is the fact they have "British" in their name, there's something very wrong with you.

[Old Gold]

Cloudy old bean. It's obvious you're not a fascist. Although I hope you're slightly playing devil's advocate.

I'm chuffed to see that at least everyone else's gag reflex is going berserk at the mention of the BNP. What surprises me is their agenda doesn't even hide their true intentions It starts off very fruity and important, but degenerates into unbridled racism.

Judging by their agenda, I can't see why anyone who wasn't a nazi would want to join the BNP, so Grame's point of view's pretty fucking valid.

[Cloud]

I think the human rights of the black and Asian population of this country far outweigh the rights of racist bastards like the BNP.

Isn't the whole point of human rights that everyone has equal rights regardless of colour, beliefs, height, weight, whatever? Again, are you suggesting that the entire BNP membership are racist bastards?

Cloudy old bean. It's obvious you're not a fascist. Although I hope you're at least slightly playing devil's advocate.

Course I am. I do believe in their human rights' date=' but I'd stand up for anyone the same way, even those bastard nimby's on the line of the bypass Though...that makes me sound like a Claims Direct lawyer

Speaking of fascism, their authortarian, military service, polished boots mentality would drive me nuts if I ever had to live under it..heck, the idea of national service is bad enough :\

Judging by their agenda, I can't see why anyone who wasn't a nazi would want to join the BNP, so Grame's point of view's pretty fucking valid.

Problem is, a lot of people who join political parties aren't completely aware of their entire policies on everything. I doubt many of the down-t'pit-since-i-was-14-and-i'm-now-70 men really have much of a clue what Blair stands for these days, yet I reckon most of them will still be paying their membership fees.

I suspect a lot of the BNP's success comes from the fact that they know how to reach out to the working class people who feel disenfranchised. I wouldn't be terribly surprised if their non-working class members were all total racists - but it wouldn't surprise me if some of the working class members are simply trying to get themselves a better deal (in their eyes).

[GraemeC]

Isn't the whole point of human rights that everyone has equal rights regardless of colour' date=' beliefs, height, weight, whatever? Again, are you suggesting that the entire BNP membership are racist bastards?[/quote']

So you dont believe that the BNP's policies are racist...?

You dont accept that they recruit members from race hate organisations and through targeting areas with large black and asian populations...?

You dont accept that the leadership of the BNP have all at some time or another been caught on video or tape preaching race hate..?

[Cloud]

So you dont believe that the BNP's policies are racist...?

You dont accept that they recruit members from race hate organisations and through targeting areas with large black and asian populations...?

You dont accept that the leadership of the BNP have all at some time or another been caught on video or tape preaching race hate..?

Who said anything about not believing it?

I don't know enough to comment - I know that Griffin was found guilty of inciting racial hatred through some publication or another, but don't know much else. He (and some other dodgy bloke) were aquitted on a bunch of charges recently though, I think?

Thing is, no matter how vile the BNP are, if they aren't breaking any laws, then they have the right to say it. That's all I'm arguing for - I'm not defending their message, I'm not defending their members, nothing like that - this is simply about their right to say what they're saying.

[GraemeC]

Who said anything about not believing it?

I don't know enough to comment - I know that Griffin was found guilty of inciting racial hatred through some publication or another' date=' but don't know much else.

But let's see..

Racism - it's not illegal to be racist. It is in certain contexts, but generally speaking, the BNP's policies are (from what I can gather) not actually illegal. If it's not illegal, how can you support the stripping of their human rights?

Targetting certain areas - it's called sound political knowledge. If I was starting up a nationalist party tomorrow, I would target areas in which I knew I could have a shot at winning - such as the North East of Scotland. It would be futile targetting Edinburgh Pentlands (Rifkind's old constituency, not sure who has it now). They simply choose to target areas in which they know they'll have a better chance of recruitment - what's wrong with that, really?

Leadership spreading race hate - I'm sure at one point or another, Sinn Fein's leadership has discussed various violent ways to kill British people. I also wouldn't be surprised if the British Army and MI5 have details on tape. Should we now ban them because of it?

Thing is, no matter how vile the BNP are, if they aren't breaking any laws, then they have the right to say it. That's all I'm arguing for - I'm not defending their message, I'm not defending their members, nothing like that - this is simply about their right to say what they're saying.[/quote']

I despair.....ok you win i'm out, I'm off to goose step practice....

[Cloud]

I despair.....ok you win i'm out' date=' I'm off to goose step practice....[/quote']

ack I changed my post, it's impossible to really comment on what I think when I don't really know that much about them.

Saying racism isn't illegal was a stupid comment, because it is..but it isn't..but it depends on so much. I guess if you or me stood up and said that all blacks were car thieves, we'd get ignored/laughed at, but if Nick Griffin did it, he'd probably find himself in a cell. I think that's part of the reason why it's so hard to stamp it out - it's one thing to stamp out littering because there's no doubt about it, but to stamp out something that's utterly subjective and differing from one person to another is always going to be difficult.

For the record, I have no doubt that the BNP leadership are a bunch of racists. Why? It's bloody obvious, that's why Anyone that makes such a fuss about being British (and for that matter, Scottish/Welsh/Irish) is bound to be racist in some way, even if it's on the subconcious level.

May I ask how people would feel if they were banned from believing in something that they believed in?

[Hog]

For the record' date=' I have no doubt that the BNP leadership are a bunch of racist cunts. Why? It's bloody obvious, that's why [/quote']

The BNP members are either a) Racist and or b) Ignorant

Tony Blair had to power to bomb Iraq, Im disappointed that he cant get rid the BNP. They incite racism (fact) which is illegal.

[Hog]

and you say this Cloudster!!!

Again' date=' are you suggesting that the entire BNP membership are racist bastards?[/quote']

Im confused

[Cloud]

Im confused

shit stirrer!

I think everyone knows that the BNP leadership is racist in some way. Problem is' date=' they've been tried by the media and by certain elements of the political world, not by the legal system - which has led to them being branded racists even though it's not so clear cut.

I just had a quick look at their 2005 manifesto..

Mr Griffin also wants the reintroduction of national service and said everyone who had undergone it should be required to keep a modern assault rifle at home.

what a nutcase

[GraemeC]

"Mr Griffin also wants the reintroduction of national service and said everyone who had undergone it should be required to keep a modern assault rifle at home."

It works for the Swiss..... jesus what a Nazi....o_O

[Cloud]

"Mr Griffin also wants the reintroduction of national service and said everyone who had undergone it should be required to keep a modern assault rifle at home."

It works for the Swiss..... jesus what a Nazi....o_O

I'm sorely tempted to e-mail the BNP to ask if minorities would have to do national service and if they would be given a gun..though I doubt they've thought about that possibility

[Hog]

i was going to join this arguement because i know people will take my views the wrong way and call me some kind of nazi or whatever but what the heck

i would vote b.n.p as i belive this country going to turn in to the next yugoslavia' date=' i dont want that to happen.

and i am leaving it at that[/quote']

So you would seriously vote for a party with the following policies? -

1. We would repeal the Race Relations Acts and all other restrictions on free speech in Britain .

2. We would abolish all targets and quotas for ethnic representation in all areas of employment, public and private.

3. We would abolish all politically-correct indoctrination of the police, teachers, and other public employees.

4. We would abolish all government-sponsored ethnicity-specific professional bodies, housing associations, and other organisations.

5. We would abolish all departments, agencies, or other units of government whose sole and specific purpose is to deal with ethnic issues, grievances, or crimes. Such organisations deliberately seek out the maximum quantity of "racism" in order to justify their own existence and expand their power and budgets. The law is the law and must be enforced equally upon all without being politicised over ethnic differences.

6. We would abolish all laws against racial discrimination in employment and the government bodies associated with enforcing them.

7. Except for purposes of teaching foreign languages to native speakers of English, the only languages permitted in official documents, government business, and schools will be English, Scots, and Welsh. The use of other languages by ethnic minorities in their own homes, school and institutions will also be encouraged.

8. A Clause 28-style proscription against the promotion of racial integration in schools and the media would be introduced.

9. In order to make it clear that the celebration of diversity is something in which the native peoples of our islands can share, each of our traditional Saints Days would be made Public Holidays in the nations in question, with Trafalgar Day being an additional Public Holiday throughout the entire UK.

10. A massively-funded and permanent programme, using and doubling Britain's current foreign aid budget, will aim to reduce, by voluntary resettlement to their lands of ethnic origin, the proportion of ethnic minorities living in Britain, for as long as the majority of the electorate are willing to fund such expenditure. Since the chief impact of such a programme would be the assistance it would render to Developing Countries in the Third World, this is described further in Section 16 Britain and the World.

11. While accepting the right of law-abiding minorities, in our country because they or their ancestors came here legally, to remain here and to enjoy the full protection of the law against any form of harassment or hostility, we will also seek to emphasise the importance of the prior status of the aboriginal people. This would be a national extension of the Sons and Daughters' policy in priority on housing and school places lists which BNP councils seek to implement at local level.

[GraemeC]

11. While accepting the right of law-abiding minorities' date=' in our country because they or their ancestors came here legally, to remain here and to enjoy the full protection of the law against any form of harassment or hostility, we will also seek to emphasise the importance of the prior status of the aboriginal people. This would be a national extension of the Sons and Daughters' policy in priority on housing and school places lists which BNP councils seek to implement at local level.[/quote']

Can someone break that one down for me.....I've read it 20 times and still dont get it....?(

[Guest Hon Jonda]

We need to get the BNP into the government so that political correctness doesnt go too bonkers

[Guest Hon Jonda]

Can someone break that one down for me.....I've read it 20 times and still dont get it....?(

other races are acceptable as long as they were born in the uk but we want to stress the importance of the aboriginal people of the british isles with equal housing oppertunities for all races as long as their ancestors legally emmigrated here.

I would say thats a pretty accurate translation

[Guest Phantomsmasher]

I would vote b.n.p as i belive this country going to turn in to the next yugoslavia' date=' i dont want that to happen. and i am leaving it at that[/quote']

I hate to be a complete bandwagon follower here, but that statement is perhaps one of the most ignorant I've ever encountered on these boards. I would honestly love for you, or anyone who has raised support for these fascists to actually provide an explanation, as to why they believe that voting for the b.n.p would be beneficial to this country in any way whatsoever, rather than making bold, and possibly antagonistic statements... Or even better, why immigration is such an apparent threat to the perceived fabric of British society, which, is already an extremely mixed culture, especially when traced historically.