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Milltimber to be crushed under tonnes of Tarmac


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I don't see how they could justify such a move though.

"Get the fuck out 'cos we're building a road."

I seriously don't think the Scottish executive would get away with such a move' date=' especially when there are other sites a bypass could be placed.

Like CAMPHILL.[/quote']

you didn't pay attention 20 years ago when the upgraded A90 from Aberdeen to Dungdee was built ?...lots of people lost their homes by compulsory purchase, those who fought and stayed, now live inches from a very busy dual carriage way, not a wise investment to most...

I honestly think (getting back to the deen problem), that a better bus service, and re-installing the old rail links from Ellon to ABZ, and Braemar, Ballater, Banchory (etc) to Abz....sure that would help MASSIVELY decrease the need for everone to drive to aberdeen ?

with the new bus / train depot, lets hope they have the foresight to make decent connections to all round aberdeen (Tullos, especially).

in this day and age, we should be thinking less of fuel guzzling cars, and get a bit more collective spirit and get on decent "green" modes of transport...

sounds really hippy dippy, but if we get in early, we could be pioneers of green infrastructure, something worth promoting and selling to other cities, nes pas ? (or am I being an Idealist ?)

---------------------

and, to add to the point that the Kingswells Park and Ride is pish, Granted, that's true, it is a failure, becie it (the PnR) is designed to dump people into the centre of town to shop...and it should be most effective to drop people to their work (to cut down congestion), so, the "failure" is the Connecting services, if the busses when to a central "depot", and you could take regular connections to all destinations around aberdeen, from 6 am - 9 am, I think this would massively help the ailing idea of "park and ride".

the first one (at bridge of don) was a massive success over the Christmas period...as I've mentioned, into town to shop, back out, straight to the car, of course it'd be popular!

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you didn't pay attention 20 years ago when the upgraded A90 from Aberdeen to Dungdee was built ?...lots of people lost their homes by compulsory purchase' date=' those who fought and stayed, now live inches from a very busy dual carriage way, not a wise investment to most...

I honestly think (getting back to the deen problem), that a better bus service, and re-installing the old rail links from Ellon to ABZ, and Braemar, Ballater, Banchory (etc) to Abz....sure that would help MASSIVELY decrease the need for everone to drive to aberdeen ?

with the new bus / train depot, lets hope they have the foresight to make decent connections to all round aberdeen (Tullos, especially).

in this day and age, we should be thinking less of fuel guzzling cars, and get a bit more collective spirit and get on decent "green" modes of transport...

sounds really hippy dippy, but if we get in early, we could be pioneers of green infrastructure, something worth promoting and selling to other cities, nes pas ? (or am I being an Idealist ?)

---------------------

and, to add to the point that the Kingswells Park and Ride is pish, Granted, that's true, it is a failure, becie it (the PnR) is designed to dump people into the centre of town to shop...and it should be most effective to drop people to their work (to cut down congestion), so, the "failure" is the Connecting services, if the busses when to a central "depot", and you could take regular connections to all destinations around aberdeen, from 6 am - 9 am, I think this would massively help the ailing idea of "park and ride".

the first one (at bridge of don) was a massive success over the Christmas period...as I've mentioned, into town to shop, back out, straight to the car, of course it'd be popular![/quote']

yea, what he said!!

more trains. why they've let all the rural rail links die is a complete mystery to me. it'd be great to hop on a train to braemar for the day and i'm sure it would help to some degree with congestion. they could try and encourage another bus company to set up business in aberdeen city as well which might improve bus services and prices no end. trams are another option which could be a winner.

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Okay, more public transport is generally seen as a good thing, right?

Let's assess the potential of the respective schemes.

More buses : Kingswells has failed in all due respect, if it had been a success (like the Bridge of Don P&R), chances are that similar schemes would be popping up all over the city. Unfortunately, the corridor into town doesn't lend itself well to P&R to begin with - buses don't have a clear run once they reach Mile-End, combined with the fact that it takes a fairly torturous route to reach the City Centre.

First have been investing heavily on the bus network, you very rarely see a double decker these days - about possibly the only thing that could be done to improve them is to knock prices down (and up) to £1 for any journey. I don't think many more buses could be placed on the roads without them running empty - and remeber, buses pollute.

Trams : Not an option. Edinburgh can't even get the Executive to go ahead with their tram plans, and that's in a city twice the size of Aberdeen. Any such tram line would also cost a ridiculous amount of money and would have to utilise on-street running for most (all?) of its length, something that would have a knock on effect.

Rail : Again, not an option, the costs of opening a line where no right of way exists would be astronomical. I don't think people in the affluent neighbourhoods that (say) the Deeside Line ran along would be too pleased with trains running along there once again. There is an option to build an Aberdeen "Crossrail" from Inverurie to Stonehaven - but again, where's the money going to come from to open it to a decent level?

the first one (at bridge of don) was a massive success over the Christmas period...as I've mentioned, into town to shop, back out, straight to the car, of course it'd be popular!

What about the other 11 months of the year? Is it right that we should throw taxpayers money at something that runs empty most of the time (I live next to the bus route, I see empty buses all the time) to benefit a minority?

in this day and age, we should be thinking less of fuel guzzling cars, and get a bit more collective spirit and get on decent "green" modes of transport...

At who's cost? Do you want to pay 10% more in tax just to have a good public transport network?

and, to add to the point that the Kingswells Park and Ride is pish, Granted, that's true, it is a failure, becie it (the PnR) is designed to dump people into the centre of town to shop...and it should be most effective to drop people to their work (to cut down congestion), so, the "failure" is the Connecting services, if the busses when to a central "depot", and you could take regular connections to all destinations around aberdeen, from 6 am - 9 am, I think this would massively help the ailing idea of "park and ride".

Agreed, it pisses me off being dumped in the rain in Union Street. But such a depot would cost a fair bit of money and would require a massive increase in bus traffic on certain routes - do you think the businesses on Union Street are going to be happy that buses no longer stop outside their doors, for instance? Again, if this was gonna happen, it would require a hike in fares - and paying £1.40 is already bad enough from the city centre to the Bridge of Don.

At the end of the day, the Bypass is absolutely critical in the grand scheme of things. Once we get it built, we can maybe start thinking about ways to reduce traffic into the city centre - but unfortunately, as a provincial city, I can see Edinburgh saying "you've had the bypass, that's your lot, unless you pay for it yourselves". I don't fancy paying an extra £300 on my council tax bill just to pay for some tram scheme that might not even be useful to me - and I dare say a lot of other people will say the same.

As for why they let the rural links die - simple, it's a matter of profitability and a free market. Is public transport compatible with a free market? I don't think it is, witness the fuss over CalMac tendering for an example.

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blah blah blah blah blah./....What about the other 11 months of the year? Is it right that we should throw taxpayers money at something that runs empty most of the time (I live next to the bus route' date=' I see empty buses all the time) to benefit a minority?

blah blah blah blah.[/quote']

Dear Cloud.

..................................

thanks, peep.

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you could probably fund all manner of amazing public transport initiatives on the money a new bypass would take up.

cars are shit. and people who drive cars are shitter. you only have to try crossing the road at a proper crossing to see that. not a week goes by where i almost get run over by some dick who decides they don't have to stop for the red light. one week it was two cars coming each way. i'm going to start carrying a bag of stones to throw at them i think.

also i don't understand clouds point about right of way for trains. what is that meant to mean? or are you just talking about nimby's being annoyed by trains running past their expensive houses again? if they've got good windows they'll hardly notice. trains rock. comfy, fast and cheap!

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you could probably fund all manner of amazing public transport initiatives on the money a new bypass would take up.

http://www.edinphoto.org.uk/10/12_edinburgh_today_-_trams_2009.htm

714 million is a lot of money - the bypass is being built for 400 million' date=' so how could spending almost double that be justified? Edinburgh's council is massively anti-car, yet they're struggling to justify trams. A similar scheme in Leeds has been cancelled by Darling, and the 1 billion metrolink extension in Manchester has also been scrapped. Definitely no joined up thinking from the goverment (anti car, anti tram...pro what?) there - but it's obvious that the capital costs are huge. If large metropolises such as Leeds and Manchester can't get trams, they'll never get them here.

I'm struggling to think of any initatives that would be self financing once constructed as far as public transport goes - apart from the Crossrail scheme that I mentioned, I can't think of anything else that would actually manage to be self financing without requiring destruction of property.

cars are shit. and people who drive cars are shitter. you only have to try crossing the road at a proper crossing to see that. not a week goes by where i almost get run over by some dick who decides they don't have to stop for the red light. one week it was two cars coming each way. i'm going to start carrying a bag of stones to throw at them i think.

Campaign to get a red light camera installed then ;)

also i don't understand clouds point about right of way for trains. what is that meant to mean? or are you just talking about nimby's being annoyed by trains running past their expensive houses again? if they've got good windows they'll hardly notice. trains rock. comfy, fast and cheap!

Thing is, they will notice - especially in nimby land where the benefits of jumping on a train to the city centre won't be considered because why would they want to ride on a train with the dirty unwashed masses? Traffic isn't that bad in Aberdeen to warrant public transport (part of the reason why Kingswells failed, I think). I'd personally love to see a tram from Westhill, right into the city centre, along Union Street, down the Boulevard, along the beach and up to the AECC. It would be a tourist magnet, would serve important places and would likely be a huge success. But what's the chance of the Executive funding it when it would cost a small fortune? Can't see it somehow....

5 road tolls and tell first to fuck off with their monopoly on local transport routes - strikes you know

First don't have a monopoly, never caught a Bluebird bus within the city before? Little known fact that you can use their buses within the city - and at 95p from Union Street to the Bridge of Don (versus 1.40 on First), it's a bargain.

Road tolls are a waste of time, look at how the congestion charge in London went up to 8 just because the operators of the scheme weren't making enough profit. I don't think ordinary people who rely on their car will be too happy about paying that just to go shopping in a city with a small public transport network. It works in London simply because there is alternatives - but what alternatives are there here except buses?

I'm not anti-public transport, but I'm against spending loads of money on schemes that are essentially black cash holes. If you want a damning example against public transport - try evaluating how much money public transport puts back in tax versus how much private cars put back in tax...i think you'll get a surprise :)

And lepeep...is that an admission that the park and ride runs empty most of the time? ;)

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Cloud,

not that was a post to point out that you don't fucking read any posts other than your own...

I think you'll find my original post about PnR's are that they are great for shopping, not commuting, but, I obviously didn't word it too well, for such a clever, informed person as your self to see that.

PnR = great for shopping

PnR = bad for commuting

I think I did go into "why this is the case", but , if you can be arse, go read the post again, and let me know. As, you have all the answers, so I'll withdraw for this excellent discussion.

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PnR isn't that great for shopping either though - would you want to go on a crowded bus at Christmas, loaded down with two children and loads of bags? Fuck no, much easier to take the car, park in the Bon Accord Centre and be in comfort.

As an aside, I fear the bypass will give rise to massive out of town shopping developments around the junctions, just as happened elsewhere :(

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Guest MerryChristmas
http://www.edinphoto.org.uk/10/12_edinburgh_today_-_trams_2009.htm

714 million is a lot of money - the bypass is being built for 400 million' date=' so how could spending almost double that be justified? Edinburgh's council is massively anti-car, yet they're struggling to justify trams. A similar scheme in Leeds has been cancelled by Darling, and the 1 billion metrolink extension in Manchester has also been scrapped. Definitely no joined up thinking from the goverment (anti car, anti tram...pro what?) there - but it's obvious that the capital costs are huge. If large metropolises such as Leeds and Manchester can't get trams, they'll never get them here.

I'm struggling to think of any initatives that would be self financing once constructed as far as public transport goes - apart from the Crossrail scheme that I mentioned, I can't think of anything else that would actually manage to be self financing without requiring destruction of property.

Campaign to get a red light camera installed then ;)

Thing is, they will notice - especially in nimby land where the benefits of jumping on a train to the city centre won't be considered because why would they want to ride on a train with the dirty unwashed masses? Traffic isn't that bad in Aberdeen to warrant public transport (part of the reason why Kingswells failed, I think). I'd personally love to see a tram from Westhill, right into the city centre, along Union Street, down the Boulevard, along the beach and up to the AECC. It would be a tourist magnet, would serve important places and would likely be a huge success. But what's the chance of the Executive funding it when it would cost a small fortune? Can't see it somehow....

First don't have a monopoly, never caught a Bluebird bus within the city before? Little known fact that you can use their buses within the city - and at 95p from Union Street to the Bridge of Don (versus 1.40 on First), it's a bargain.

Road tolls are a waste of time, look at how the congestion charge in London went up to 8 just because the operators of the scheme weren't making enough profit. I don't think ordinary people who rely on their car will be too happy about paying that just to go shopping in a city with a small public transport network. It works in London simply because there is alternatives - but what alternatives are there here except buses?

I'm not anti-public transport, but I'm against spending loads of money on schemes that are essentially black cash holes. If you want a damning example against public transport - try evaluating how much money public transport puts back in tax versus how much private cars put back in tax...i think you'll get a surprise :)

And lepeep...is that an admission that the park and ride runs empty most of the time? ;)[/quote']

First do have a monopoly over local bus services, bluebird run all over the country first dont

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First do have a monopoly over local bus services' date=' bluebird run all over the country first dont[/quote']

Yes, they do, Stagecoach is primarily a country service, and is hardly the most regular.

305 is one every hour, compared to the high-frequency 17 and X18 for Dyce residents.

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First do have a monopoly over local bus services' date=' bluebird run all over the country first dont[/quote']

Its not a total monopoly as Bluebird have the 57 and 59 operating in the town only and their country buses pick up in the city as well.

However it just goes to show how reliant Aberdeen is on one bus company...

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PnR isn't that great for shopping either though - would you want to go on a crowded bus at Christmas' date=' loaded down with two children and loads of bags? Fuck no, much easier to take the car, park in the Bon Accord Centre and be in comfort.

As an aside, I fear the bypass will give rise to massive out of town shopping developments around the junctions, just as happened elsewhere :([/quote']

points of view, are amazing things, eh.

you'd rather wait in a queue of traffic for up to an hour, to stress over getting a spot in the Bon Accord Centre, then jump on an "empty" (according to you) park an ride bus ?

anyway, you are missing the point (as usual)...

cars, we have to change our attitude as them being the be all and end all of transport, ESPECIALLY as time goes on, have you not heard the energy debates raging at the mo ?...

scrub that, of course you have, you know everything.

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Guest tv tanned

Cloud, are these buses empty or crowded, you seem to alternate your views by each post depending on your position.

I get the bus everywhere I go, except when the weather is good in which case I endeavour to walk, and I find it highly convenient and infinitely cheaper than the associated costs of running a car.

The only downside is for being able to go on a different route when holidaying, but then there is always the option of hiring a car for such things.

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Empty most of the time, except peak times - in relation to the Park and Ride buses. The regular buses are usually busy enough, First's investment seems to have paid off as far as getting ridership up - especially on the 1/2 corridor to the Bridge of Don. I could see potential for putting even more buses on that corridor - but at what enviromental cost?

I could be totally wrong in this, but surely if there was a demand, any bus company could set up and run services? First have the resources though, and there's no way they're going to be beat on their own patch. There's a few routes that could do with a service, but all the high frequency, high profitability corridors are sewn up by First anyway.

you'd rather wait in a queue of traffic for up to an hour, to stress over getting a spot in the Bon Accord Centre, then jump on an "empty" (according to you) park an ride bus ?

Where are these queues that take up to an hour? The worst jam I've ever been in took half an hour from the city centre to Donmouth - and the bus took 15 minutes, so taking an extra 15 minutes to get there in comfort would take precedence over sitting on an uncomfortable bus for half the time.

As for the energy debates - I agree, but putting more diesel eating, polluting buses on the road isn't the answer. Even ones that use other forms of fuel aren't a good option - and are people really going to support a windfarm off the beach just generate renewable electric that trolleybuses would use? I think part of the solution should be banning out of town developments when there's inner city land that can be used - I mean, how much extra pollution is going to be caused by all the cars driving from Elrick to Aberdeen when there's plenty of land available within the city limits?

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I've once been in an hour queue to get into the bon accord car park, (this is all Xmas shopping times, as I've said in my post, is the best time to use PnR...)

this has more offshoots than lord of the rings....

I think we should all be allowed to work from home, there's a solution....

I shouldn't rise to your posts...really, I shouldn't....

I liked this part :

"Empty most of the time, except peak times "...

you mean Rush Hour ?

or are you still parping on about Shopping and PnR...

All I did was say that the most effective I've ever seen the PnR was Xmas Shopping in the Bridge Of Don...

I think I'd addressed the "shite PnR" for COMUTING, by saying the central hub / onward journey was crap.

you argued that the "town busses wouldn't like it"...(excuse the paraphrasing)...I lost interest after a while....

I'm stopping now, I've lost the plot, distraction, the best way to win an arguement..not that we were having one, till you turned up, just a collection of suggestions to combat congestion, without building massive roads that cut swaths through peoples houses and communities...

hold on, wasn't that the point of the orginal post ?!....ah ! I've found the plot again! Huzah!

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Last time I was in Edinburgh I noticed something...

the busses were fucking cheap compared to up here! AND they have to go further!

The only difference? 'First' doesn't have a monopoly in that city. Lothian Transport (or whatever they're called, they have red busses) operate within the city too and are much less fickle than 'First', as a result, fares are kept low.

I would use the bus more often if it were a reasonable price.

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Edinburgh's bus system is essentially because First subsidises that operation from other parts of the country in order to fight a bus war with Lothian - who have to keep their fares at the same level as First's, otherwise they'd lose the war. Lothian are also the council owned operator, so if it wasn't for First in that city, chances are that they would be a dominant monopoly. I also presume you didn't see the problems Lothian were having as far as wages go.

Personally, I'm happy to pay £1.40 (though I try and use Bluebird as they give change) from Union Street to Donmouth if it means getting to travel on frequent, modern buses. Loads of Lothian's buses are knackered and falling to bits, so paying 40p less per journey isn't really that appealing. Also, the knackered Aberdeen buses were all sent down to Lothian to fight the "bus war" too for First - so really, is it that much better a deal when the older buses pollute even more?

Why are people presuming that First has a monopoly when they don't? A monopoly is a dominant operator with significant barriers in place to stop other people entering - but the doors are open for someone else to come into Aberdeen and start a bus service. They won't, because any bus company doing it will be viewed as an aggressor (First is based out of Aberdeen, after all) and will likely get outspent by First anyway.

Now, if Aberdeen wants to encourage people onto the buses, they should subsidise a free park and ride operation - as it stands, a person on their own can pay more to park and ride than they pay for a bus trip to London - sooo...why not subsidise a free operation? I'm sure *that* would be packed.

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what difference does it make how modern the bus is? so long as it gets you into town that's all that matters.

anyway, trams. manchester has an excellent tram system. i've ridden it often and the experience was much more preferable to the bus although more scally's ride it as they can dodge the fare easier.

i like how your argument that hour long queues don't exist is based simply on the fact you've never been stuck in one. what a gloriously simple way of looking at life.

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I find it hard to believe that in this day in age we still have in effect such a thing as a Compulsary Purchase Order. You'd think owning your home would pretty much guarantee its security, but it doesn't - not even if the mortgage has been entirely paid off and the house is completely yours!

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what difference does it make how modern the bus is? so long as it gets you into town that's all that matters.

Without even going into social factors' date=' what about the enviromental issues? Buses pollute quite badly in the grand scheme of things - so modern buses won't pollute the enviroment as badly.

anyway, trams. manchester has an excellent tram system. i've ridden it often and the experience was much more preferable to the bus although more scally's ride it as they can dodge the fare easier.

Yup, agreed, it's a fantastic system. Dublin's is second to none as well. They're both expensive, but they get the job done really well - but again, cost pretty much kills any hope of one in Aberdeen stone dead. We could probably build a tram from Kingswells to the Bridge of Don for the cost of the bypass - but it would have absolutely zero benefit for people who don't even want to go into Aberdeen, but rather bypass it.

i like how your argument that hour long queues don't exist is based simply on the fact you've never been stuck in one. what a gloriously simple way of looking at life.

Might be because personally, if there was a queue of an hour to get somewhere in Aberdeen that I wanted to go to, I'd find another way to get to it - or change my plans. Doesn't exactly do the enviroment much good to sit in a queue, does it?

The point about the buses coming together is simply because of the traffic - which is pretty much where buses come unstuck. Unfortunately, there's not even room to upgrade the roads at some choke points, so the chances of the buses getting dedicated corridors seem pretty slim.

What I'd like to see is park and ride facilities built at all the junctions on the bypass, with fares set ridiculously low - say 50p for the whole car. A timetable could be set so a bus would head to another P&R facility after being in the city centre, so people would have the benefit from being able to get to cross town destinations without changing buses. Once ridership figures came in, they could strengthen/weaken services as appropriate. It would require a fair bit of subsidy - but surely it would be worth it?

I find it hard to believe that in this day in age we still have in effect such a thing as a Compulsary Purchase Order. You'd think owning your home would pretty much guarantee its security, but it doesn't - not even if the mortgage has been entirely paid off and the house is completely yours!

If we didn't have them, how would anything ever get built?

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Ah but... with those of us who work during the peak hours this is a massive problem... there is no option. You have to get to work and get there on time. End of.

Yup' date=' hence why buses are such a nightmare to rely on. I had to get a bus to work last saturday (horror of horrors, etc) during the bus strike. Looked online at the timetable, and saw a load of buses during 3pm (stagecoach, that is)..thought "that'll do nicely" and popped along to the bus stop. Two of them didn't even stop, despite being signalled - and yeah, i'm chasing it up with the parent company. Still got to work on time, but I would've been fucked if I didn't have loads of time to kill by waiting at the bus stop anyway.

But in regards to the queues : waaaaay too often, people will sit in a traffic jam rather than trying to utilise other routes to get there. If you use public transport, there's not much choice in most respects, but if you have a car, there's not really any excuse to sit in a jam for an hour in a city. I appreciate though, that there'll be a psychological barrier against taking an unfamiliar route to the destination.

True modern buses don't pollute as badly and you'll find that most inner city buses are modern (not all but most) however... I think you'll find 20 people on a bus vs 20 cars... the bus wins in regards to less pollution.

Yup, completely agreed. I think there's a strong case for banning buses over 10 years old in short distance public transport work, and combining that with strict emissions controls. The problem is, that has to be paid for - which ultimately will be paid for by the users of the buses. It's a tough one - people will be willing to pay more to use their own transport, but will they really be willing to pay more to use what essentially is just a plain old bus, regardless of how modern it is? People have complained about bus fares on this thread, despite the modernness of the fleet in town - so what's the chances of them tolerating a hike to 1.70/1.80 for a single ticket in order to have an even better network?

What about old cars? They are terrible... and the sad thing is that most people commute on their own. Very few people car share... be it because they are too lazy or because they simply don't live or work near anyone they know (that's certainly the case for most people I know) thus it's not practical.

Or don't want to share their personal space with other people, or any number of reasons. I don't know any practical solutions to combatting single car use that doesn't end up costing a fortune to maintain. Old cars can be taxed off the road (what they're doing at the minute, anyway), but that has knock on implications that need to be thought about.

It's cheaper to use buses than to run a car and I reckon if the services catered for the worker better then they would be utilised more.

I don't know anything about how the services are set, but I suspect that the vast majority of services are ran on a commercial basis. If it was commercial for them to cater better for the workers, no doubt they would - but I guess their attitude is that you can get to anywhere via the city centre, and that's all that matters.

Aberdeen City Council actually does seem to have its head relatively screwed on - their plan to ease cross city journeys by improving transport corridors is a sensible one, while attempting to completely kill city centre traffic at the same time.

I guess the whole issue is over just how much should be invested in public transport - and is it fair to tax people for a network that they might not ever use for a multitude of reasons?

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Why couldn't Camphill move out into the country' date=' up in the mountains where the land is utterly worthless and where their quality of life is likely to be far higher than in the city centre?

[/quote']

Perhaps, but what about the parents who do indeed "dump" their children, out of sight, out of mind?

Wasn't your idea to post disabled people off into the mountains? To let all the special people be special together out of everyone's way? Total bollocks. Isolate people like that and you exclude them.

Plus, lots of people who are not camphill residents benefit from their facilities - work placements and such. Throw camphill into the countryside and you make the site inaccessible to non-residents who use the site.

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