"arts degrees are not worth the paper they're written on"

[Marillionboy]

Yes but you have to divorce universities from expectations of work. The government has a duty ot maintain the culture of its society and also to allow everyone the chance to be educated without decieving them. It should also make employers invest more in apprenticeships and training to stop the graduate graveyard and the level of debt in this country from becoming any bigger. In my opinion.

[threeornothing]

Also... what you fail to realise is that in this day and age you don't need a degree to get a good job.

I wouldn't necessarily agree with that. I'm the only person in a department of 6/7 who doesn't have a degree (or any further education) and I don't think the other people would be in their job without their degree. Theres a stigma that comes with not having a degree, particularly amongst older/educated/corporate types, and I've been pulled up many times on my lack of qualifications...not a lot of people have respect for this!!!

Also....if it wasn't for art students dropping out and blowing all their money...I dread to think what the current state of music would be today!! Read your history....

[Knight of Swords]

This assumes universities are there to prepare people for employment which by and large they are not. This has derived from the fact that for many years a Uni education assisted you in getting a good job. But it wasn't the reason for it. Universities are places where you go to learn' date=' the expectatioon is no greater. Governments teachers and parents have a belief they are a kind of pre-employment training which for medicine engineering and so on they are but they are also there to maintain the culture and academia of the world and allow individuals to learn what they wish to.[/quote']

I did make that assumption. I was at Glasgow Uni and it definitely doesn't work like that there (at least in the context of the arts faculty). I'm assuming the same is true for the old unis in general. However, most unis do seem to have a strong focus on finding work for their graduates.

I agree that what you've described is the way things should be, I just don't think they are to the extent you described.

[Knight of Swords]

It's my belief that if someone truly wants to do a course and do have a degree of intelligence that you'd actually reseach what the course holds (go figure). This information can easily be accessed from any university. You can even try speaking to older students on the course (again... this can be easily arranged) to ask what the course holds in later years. Staff members from each department are also good people to ask.

You are wrong. How many seventeen year olds have the maturity to make a decision which their entire life potentially rides upon?

Also... what you fail to realise is that in this day and age you don't need a degree to get a good job.

I fail to realise this because in the majority of cases' date=' this is not true.

Also... it's the governments fault that there around a million jobs out there for music students? That's nonsense... all industries are based on a demand and if you want to access an industry where the demand for employees is incredibly low that you have to take into consideration that the most likely scenario is that your dream job won't fall on your lap..

It's called reality.

This is quite easy. There are no jobs. The government push everyone to go to uni. This keeps unemployment figures down. Graduates come out of university and there are still no jobs. The only difference is they now owe money to the government. Is this situation created by the student or the government?

This is called reality. What you described is called "Blame Him - Vote Labour".

[beeker]

Also... I am wrong to think that people would actually reserach what they are signing themselves up to for four years of their lives?

You really are living in cloud cockoo land... are you a drop out by any chance?

i'm betting a serial year repeater.... " i just can't make up my mind"

hehe, shortage of jobs my arse; anyone on this forum could go and work in McD's probably starting tonight. Difference between not getting a job and not getting a job you like. not everyone can paint for a living!.

[Spoonie]

well, the debate was on friday night and although the motion fell, me and my partner were voted the winning partnership! the debate was quite close because it's not a very esay topic to debate but i went down the following route:

make comments about a few of the weaker points which each of the opposition speakers used

take some statistics which show unemployment figures for arts graduates and pad them out a little

discuss the change in numbers of chemistry vs media studies as provided by tv tanned

add a heap of quality one-liners to pad out the lack of information

make sure the delivery is sharp

and away we go!!

thanks for all your help guys! in between the arguing, people on this board do came in handy sometimes

spoons

/x

[Knight of Swords]

Also... I am wrong to think that people would actually reserach what they are signing themselves up to for four years of their lives?

You really are living in cloud cockoo land... are you a drop out by any chance?

Erm, no actually. Perhaps if you'd actually read what I've written you'd have noticed that.

And as I said, nobody who hasn't been to uni can appreciate what it will be like. You can research the type of work you might be doing, but that's it. It seems more like you're the one who knows bugger all about this.

[Knight of Swords]

i'm betting a serial year repeater.... " i just can't make up my mind"

hehe' date=' shortage of jobs my arse; anyone on this forum could go and work in McD's probably starting tonight. Difference between not getting a job and not getting a job you like. not everyone can paint for a living!.[/quote']

I'm betting a Sun reader for you.

[Knight of Swords]

No jobs? That's funny... there's a huge shortage of nurses' date=' doctors and engineers in the UK. So erm... oh wait you mean a shortage of arts based jobs? Well... you see... industry doesn't depend on arts students so there will always be a shortage of jobs in this sector.[/quote']

Actually, most arts graduates don't go into arts based professions. Apart from this, there aren't enough university places to accomodate every student in the few fields you mentioned.

As for going to uni at 17? Who said this is forced upon you? If you don't know what to do then be mature enough to take a year or two out until you do... doing something you're not even sure about is basically going to uni for the sake of going... thus wasting not only your own time but using up a place someone else who truly wants to do the course could use.

The government have already stated that they want to see about 50% of school leavers going onto higher education. People are being actively encouraged to go to uni or college. Considering the education system basically carries you along till you're in 6th Year' date=' plenty of people are happy to stick with. And why do you think that if you don't know what you want to do when you're 17, you'll have any more idea when you're 20?

You're really shooting yourself in the foot here, thousands of people take years out. I didn't realise it was inforced that people HAVE to go to uni at 17.

Is this sarcasm? Refer to my last paragraph.

Hahahaha... vote Labour? That's set me up in giggles for the week.

Well you sound like a troglodyte, so it was an educated guess.

[Rachie]

Perhaps there's a course on how to remove a bayonet fitted lightbulb... by that I mean, not unscrewing it and leaving the casing in the fitting

[Rachie]

Interesting.

I've changed it now anyway. Although accidently smashed it after using it to get the casing out of the fitting...

Whoops.

Do carry on.

Re: Gap years

Doing work in a developing country in Africa certainly might give you a bit of perspective on what you might want to do with your life... I'd say the Gap Year programmes are very useful in that respect. Don't knock it, they're not for everyone, and some people are just better to go straight to Uni, there are those that benefit greatly from a Gap Year. Although looking back, I kinda wish I'd dropped 6th year and gone away for a bit before going back. Might have been more inclined to study rather that letting myself stay in the bad habits I developed in 6th year.

By the way. Just because people have "real jobs" and aren't at Uni themselves, doesn't mean they haven't got a pretty good idea about what student life is like.

[Jim Stax]

Perhaps there's a course on how to remove a bayonet fitted lightbulb... by that I mean' date=' not unscrewing it and leaving the casing in the fitting [/color']

I tried to get on that course. Oversubscribed! I plumpt for a Masters in Fine art instead because I had no idea what i wanted to be when I grew up... Seemed a nice way of having an easy ride for several years...

[beeker]

I tried to get on that course. Oversubscribed! I plumpt for a Masters in Fine art instead because I had no idea what i wanted to be when I grew up... Seemed a nice way of having an easy ride for several years...

planted any spoons yet?... i think thats a module?

[Jim Stax]

planted any spoons yet?... i think thats a module?

Just completed a foundation course in getting small bits of toast out of the toaster

[beeker]

Just completed a foundation course in getting small bits of toast out of the toaster

to be followed by the how to create your own tie-dye masterpiece? or the elective, "become a fruitist" because eating a carrot is murder.

[Knight of Swords]

Well considering how many people I'm sure you and I probably know who are at uni and even teaching at the uni... I'd say you could get a pretty good idea. It's hard work... you don't work hard' date=' you fail... there are tutors etc who are there with office hours which you can drop into for help.

Considering beeker has been to uni and my other half is a tutor at aberdeen... I'm sure we can form some form of idea between us.

What is it you are trying to argue? You're spinning off on tangents... you were talking about jobs after uni.... I have a job... and have always worked since I was 16... be it in school holidays or full-time as I do now. Beeker here has a technical based job.

What I'm saying is...[/quote']

Actually, you argued with something I said which had nothing to do with jobs (to be honest, it had little to do with what I was talking about). I know what you're saying and I don't agree with what you said. I've already wrote why.

[Knight of Swords]

Erm... the fact that you mature massively perhaps...

none of that changes what I said.... shit loads of people have gap years' date=' shit loads of people work for a bit... nobody forces you to go directly to uni... and if you're not sure but do want to go... do a generalised course, then you can sample a few things and find what you're better at.[/quote']

If you read my initial post about how I think uni courses should be run, I actually said that in the majority of cases, students should all have generalised courses. At the moment, arts faculties are the most generalised (certainly at the older unis). I'm glad you agree.