50W 0r 100W Amp

[Hog]

so The effect is very noticable' date=' if your wearing an open jacket or shirt then it will flap around like you are being subjected to a stiff breeze![/quote']

Who needs air conditioning

[Guest lime ruined my life]

Ha ha ha ha ha if only it were that simple! Try reading impedance 101! For starters those speakers are 25W RMS which means they can probably draw about 40-50W each on peak. But due to the way electrical power and impedance works the same 50W will in fact drive all 4' date=' that's a simplification but not too far from the truth.

[/quote']

i know the difference between rms and peak.

im sorry if it seemed like i was arguing, i wasn't, i just wasn't sure what you're point was. it initially ocurred to me that you were niggling about "volume" in what i said.

im also a bit confused about what you keep saying about over-powering cabs, but i'm willing to accept it.

as far as i knew, if you have your 4x12 rigged in series, resistance is added linearly. power is directly proportional to resistance, and therefore power is added linearly, which is where my 25+25+25+25 came from, i didnt just pull it out my ass...

.(p.s know impedance and resistance are different, but only in the same sort of way velocity and speed are different)

[Bobby]

EDIT: I forgot to add - come to a decent sized gig' date=' and stand near the front and the bass will flap your clothing around. The effect is very noticable, if your wearing an open jacket or shirt then it will flap around like you are being subjected to a stiff breeze![/quote']

i have felt the power!

[Gav]

Thanks for the reply guys, im certainly more informed now, yet the decision still seems no easier. Assuming i get the AVT 100, would i need an attenuator or not? As im already on a budget and this just racks it up even more. If this is the case would i not be able to get away with the AVT 50 mic'd up? The AVT 50 is 80 cheaper, now i dont want to waste that getting the AVT100 if it needs an attentuator, but if the AVT50 might not be loud enough its useless. Also one last thing, would the AVT100 be fine for rehearsing?

Cheers

[Chris]

I would imagine a 50W amp is perfectly adequate for most gigs you'd be playing in Aberdeen.

[Flash@TMB]

Thanks for the reply guys' date=' im certainly more informed now, yet the decision still seems no easier. Assuming i get the AVT 100, would i need an attenuator or not? As im already on a budget and this just racks it up even more. If this is the case would i not be able to get away with the AVT 50 mic'd up? The AVT 50 is 80 cheaper, now i dont want to waste that getting the AVT100 if it needs an attentuator, but if the AVT50 might not be loud enough its useless. Also one last thing, would the AVT100 be fine for rehearsing?

Cheers[/quote']

OK back on topic. Here is your answer:

http://www.rockingrooster.co.uk/search_res.php?q=dsl401&CatID=0

The Marshall DSL401.

The same price as the AVT100 or near enough, but a full on 50W valve. NOTE THIS PRICE INCLUDES VAT!!! Much better sound, just as portable, only 1 speaker so sound engineers will let you crank it, and much the same sound as a JCM2000. Perhaps not all the nasty gimmecky features of the AVT but a much, much, much better sounding amp for the money. It'll also sound louder than the AVT100, and generate those amazing harmonics that you can feel pass right through your body.

DO IT!

(fuckin hell I almost want one myself now)

[IamScrooge]

Sorry, but there are some glaring inaccuracies in this thread...

Valve amps rated the same as transistor amps WILL put out more power when overdriven. This is becauce it is undesirable to overdrive the power section of a transistor amp, and so the amp as a whole is not designed to perform this function, and is limited by the headroom available on the power section. Valve amps, on the other hand, WILL overdrive the power section and it is desirable to do so, both types of amp are rated at a level where they clip(this is oversimplification of course, but adequate for this thread). Although, flash, as you do point out you will need 10x the power to get a given amp/speaker combination twice as loud, which is why the difference isn't more obvious.

However, a 10x increase in power, is a 10dB difference, which in theory has 10x more volume. What you're thinking of, is that a 10dB difference in volume will be roughly equal to a percieved doubling in loudness. It'll only take you 5 mins on google to confirm this btw.

Also, speakers do NOT work like lightbulbs. You CAN power a 50w speaker with 1500w and not blow it up however. You can even do it safely if you have a limiter. The factor which will decide how much power is being sent to the speaker is the intensity of the input signal. If you put a relatively small signal into a 1500w power amp input, you could probably drive a 50w speaker all day, no sweat! Start putting a real hot signal through that speaker though and you'll soon be phoning up CLS for a recone!

Also relevent here, is the accuracy of the output specs of the amp. I'm sure you know, that a Behringer/Phonic 1500w isn't equal to a QSC or Crown 1500w rating.

[Flash@TMB]

Sorry' date=' but there are some glaring inaccuracies in this thread...

Valve amps rated the same as transistor amps WILL put out more power when overdriven. This is becauce it is undesirable to overdrive the power section of a transistor amp, and so the amp as a whole is not designed to perform this function, and is limited by the headroom available on the power section. Valve amps, on the other hand, WILL overdrive the power section and it is desirable to do so, both types of amp are rated at a level where they clip(this is oversimplification of course, but adequate for this thread). Although, flash, as you do point out you will need 10x the power to get a given amp/speaker combination twice as loud, which is why the difference isn't more obvious.

However, a 10x increase in power, is a 10dB difference, which in theory has 10x more volume. What you're thinking of, is that a 10dB difference in volume will be roughly equal to a percieved doubling in loudness. It'll only take you 5 mins on google to confirm this btw.

Also, speakers do NOT work like lightbulbs. You CAN power a 50w speaker with 1500w and not blow it up however. You can even do it safely if you have a limiter. The factor which will decide how much power is being sent to the speaker is the intensity of the input signal. If you put a relatively small signal into a 1500w power amp input, you could probably drive a 50w speaker all day, no sweat! Start putting a real hot signal through that speaker though and you'll soon be phoning up CLS for a recone!

Also relevent here, is the accuracy of the output specs of the amp. I'm sure you know, that a Behringer/Phonic 1500w isn't equal to a QSC or Crown 1500w rating.[/quote']

So to summarise: While theoretically a 50W valve amp will sound louder than a 50W transistor amp in reality it depends on the amp, the amps dampening factor, the speaker efficiency, the speaker size(s), the speaker configuration, the impedance, the signal, blah, blah, blah.

But one thing is certain: (unless Behringer made it) a valve amp will usually sound better than a tranny amp, and a 50W valve amp is plenty loud enough (unless Behringer made it).

So buy the DSL401 Which is made by Marshall.

[IamScrooge]

Agreed Flash, there are so many other factors to consider, especially the speakers cabs efficiency and response. In the end, the biggest factor is what you set that volume knob at. Guitar amps are so (damned) loud these days that "Is it going to be loud enough" is a question answered best by "Are the rest of your band idiots who like to play as loud as they possibly can?" and often remedied by facing their amps at their heads in close proximity, if they still dont turn down, wait a few weeks till they go deaf and it'll be a moot point.

Admittedly, I wouldn't like to gig with a lot of the lower power transistor amps out there, as a *generalised* rule, I'd prefer larger than 50w to be safe.

Many people dont like the AVT series as when they're loud, they dont sound too hot, but I have found that, IME, this is due largely to the crappy speakers which marshall use in that range, and using a decent cabinet (such as a 1960) improves the amps sound greatly.

Although I have not used one, the DSL401 sounds like a nice choice. I'd assume that the DSL401 would also benefit from a better cab, which is a nice upgrade option for the future.

Behringer makes me sad. I weep at night as I have nightmares of turning up to a concert to find an all-behringer PA which subsequently fails and goes on fire, taking with it all my guitars and amps. Your concept of a behringer all-valve amp is sure to haunt my dreams tonight!

[Monk Rocker]

DSL401 is a nice amp. I have one. Small enough to be very portable, easy to drive pretty hard. Add a cab and it sounds huge!

They are notoriously unreliable though. Mine has been back to Marshall as it blew up the valves, and it runs ridiculously hot.......

[Flash@TMB]

In the end' date=' the biggest factor is what you set that volume knob at.

Guitar amps are so (damned) loud these days that "Is it going to be loud enough" is a question answered best by "Are the rest of your band idiots who like to play as loud as they possibly can?" and often remedied by facing their amps at their heads in close proximity, if they still dont turn down, wait a few weeks till they go deaf and it'll be a moot point.[/quote']

LMAO yes we do this all the time. It's funny when they position their 2x12 on the floor 9" behind their heels and then compalin they can't hear it. We just raise the fucker up on a pile of beer crates till it's level with their head and their soon complaining that they can't hear ANYTHING. Which is of course the sound of their distortion pedal...

Behringer makes me sad. I weep at night as I have nightmares of turning up to a concert to find an all-behringer PA

I hate to tell you this but... no best not go there LMAO

[Hog]

I would imagine a 50W amp is perfectly adequate for most gigs you'd be playing in Aberdeen.

Indeed, The Moorings, Drummonds, Kef, Moshulu, Lemon Tree all mike up the amps.

[Flash@TMB]

DSL401 is a nice amp. I have one. Small enough to be very portable' date=' easy to drive pretty hard. Add a cab and it sounds huge!

They are notoriously unreliable though. Mine has been back to Marshall as it blew up the valves, and it runs ridiculously hot.......[/quote']

But surely that's a selling point. I bet a Behringer never blew one of the LEDs that light up it's fake valves...

The 4 pieces of Behringer kit I used to have were annoying reliable, and after using them for a few minutes I was dearly hoping those fuckers would break so that I could take them back to the shop for a refund, and do something more worthwile with the money, like pissing it up against the wall or buying someones spunk on ebay.

[Gav]

OK back on topic. Here is your answer:

http://www.rockingrooster.co.uk/search_res.php?q=dsl401&CatID=0

The Marshall DSL401.

That thing looks seriously good, bit above what i want to spend but if it sounds so much better than the AVT as people say, its worth it. Does seem somewhat unreliable but i'll only be using it for rehearsing/gigging so hopefully wont take too much abuse and marshall seem to have made efforts to rectify this on newer models. Only way to decide is to get down to a guitar shop

[Monk Rocker]

That's a seriously decent price for that amp! I paid alot more than that

Mind you, with the reliability issues, then I'd wonder if the extra service you'd get buying one of those locally would justify the extra moolah?

[IamScrooge]

You should be aware that the reliability issues which the DSL 401 was notorious for were thermal issues. However, a couple years back Marshall addressed the issue and the newer units seem to have a much better reputation.

[Guest Bailz]

The same price as the AVT100 or near enough' date=' but a full on 50W valve. NOTE THIS PRICE INCLUDES VAT!!! Much better sound, just as portable, only 1 speaker so sound engineers will let you crank it, and much the same sound as a JCM2000.[/quote']

The 401 is a 40w amp and is a JCM2000 (Some minor points really )