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Gav

50W 0r 100W Amp

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Hey, me and and couple of mates are in the process of putting a rock band together, so im going to get me a decent amp and ive pretty much settled on a Marshall AVT. Only thing is i dont know whats best to get for the venues round here, 50W or 100W. Is 100W the safer bet or 50W enough?

Cheers

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Guest Bailz
a 50 watt can be mic'd up in a venue. a 100 watt has to be attenuated if you want to od it at reasonable levels' date=' attenuators are in the region of 100 pounds i think. On the other hand, if you want clean, a 100 watt would have more headroom.[/quote']

Attenuating an amp with a solid state power section? You'd be as well just set the thing on fire to begin with...

With the AVT you'll probably get a better sound out of the 100W as you'd have more volume to play with without the sound getting fuzzy or transistory.

I'm not sure if it holds for the combos but I found the AVT150H (head version) to have a much better sound than the 50w head.

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Guest lime ruined my life
Attenuating an amp with a solid state power section? You'd be as well just set the thing on fire to begin with...

With the AVT you'll probably get a better sound out of the 100W as you'd have more volume to play with without the sound getting fuzzy or transistory.

I'm not sure if it holds for the combos but I found the AVT150H (head version) to have a much better sound than the 50w head.

urrrrrrrrrrr, i didnt read that part.

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Guest Bailz
Everybody knows that all valve amps sound better anyway. ;)
and its not worth buying anything that isnt a valve amp................. :rolleyes:

Have we not been here before? :D

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and its not worth buying anything that isnt a valve amp

Thats a great quote! More true than you'd think too, once you consider the second hand market and all.

Of course this doesn't apply to people using PODs, Jazz etc...use a bit of common sense.

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for a marshall avt, go for the 100 watt, you will probably need the power to get a clean sound at volumes

for a valve amp, they put out a lot more volume per watt, so a 50 watt head would be more than enough

David

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dude im all in favour of valve amps.... a 25 watt tube amp will sound jsut as loud as a 50watt transistor amp... i have a jcm2000tsl 100 watt marshall 3 channell valve head with a laney 4x12... and i find it really hard to get any kinda nice tone out of any solid state amp these days.... valve tone is the way to go... why not get this sweet lil amp instead http://www.imuso.co.uk/ProductDetail.asp?StockCode=EG00829

p.s i used to work in a guitar store... and we stocked the avt marshall range.... and well they sounded ok at low volume but when u cranked them out like u would for a live venue they sounded fuzzy as hell and there was no clarity in the sound.... look around for a nice little 2x12 marshall or laney all valve amp instead of going solidstate or hybrid(like avt series) dude.... u willl be far more satisfied with valves...

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Guest Bailz
for a valve amp' date=' they put out a lot more volume per watt[/quote']

No they don't, it's only perceived to be louder because of certain harmonics created by the valve.

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No they don't' date=' it's only perceived to be louder because of certain harmonics created by the valve.[/quote']

Yes! All that stuff about valve watts being louder is rubbish, but they do feel louder.

Valve amps give off that feeling of power, where you can feel the vibrations from each note/chord going through your body. In order to get this effect you have to crank them up a little, but in doing so risk drowning out the rest of the band. One solution we've found is to fit a Marshall Powerbrake, this attenuates the output without hurting the amp or the sound. With the amp cranked to 5 or 6 and the powerbrake turned down appropriately you still get that same feeling of power, good tone, and clarity/crispness of sound (even distortion should have clarity as opposed to sounding like thin white noise) but at a workable volume.

So IMHO definately go for a valve amp. If you don't like the concept of a brake, or can't afford a brake, then go for a 50W, otherwise go for a 100W and a brake and give yourself some flexibility.

Another good option is to go for a stereo 4x12 cab. If your playing a small venue then with the flick of a switch you can kill 2 speakers and half your output without affecting the sound at all.

But if you do go for a valve amp them please also avoid going for a solid state pod or pedal. For starters with a decent valve amp then there really should be no need for an FX pedal, and the FX wills just stand out as being horribly processed. We have an Engel Powerball 100W with a 6-way footswitch. This can make something like 18 different sounds purely from the amp without resorting to any FX. Yes people still come along, hook up their pod, switch it to clean, and crank up their shitty solid state distortion (WHY?)... effectively making it sound like a cheap hissy tranny :puke: In the event that you do require a pedal of some sort them I'd recommend get one with a valve preamp stage, perhaps one of these:

http://www.kgbamplification.com/en/pedals/

But personally I prefer no pedal at all.

BTW please let it be noted that I cannot actually play guitar or anything else for that matter LMAO!

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If you're playing through a full PA' date=' most soundmen throw a hissy fit if you can actually hear the fucking thing. get a Pignose.[/quote']

and use it without a PA ;)

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Guest DustyDeviada
But if you do go for a valve amp them please also avoid going for a solid state pod or pedal. For starters with a decent valve amp then there really should be no need for an FX pedal' date=' and the FX wills just stand out as being horribly processed. We have an Engel Powerball 100W with a 6-way footswitch. This can make something like 18 different sounds purely from the amp without resorting to any FX. Yes people still come along, hook up their pod, switch it to clean, and crank up their shitty solid state distortion (WHY?)... effectively making it sound like a cheap hissy tranny :puke: [/quote']

Rory, he's talking about you. ;)

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yeah - I'm a valve giuy myself.

I think one of the best deals going around just now for features/sound vs price is a used Peavey Classic 30 combo.

It is all valve, 2 footswitchable channels, is lightweight and easy to carry and regularly goes for 200 or so on ebay (used). I've owned one and would happily gig with it.

They are rock/blues amps, so not for you if you play in a metal band - but they are awsome amps - much better than an AVT Marshall (which I've gigged with too)

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No they don't' date=' it's only perceived to be louder because of certain harmonics created by the valve.[/quote']

technically the SPL will be the same from both amps, but stand on front of one of each cranked and tell me which seems louder to you...

similar to the difference between guitar/bass, and the fact you need a bass amp roughly double the wattage (or more) to get the same percieved volume due to how the ear percieves the different frequencys

flash - people borrowing your amp then using something else for the distortion does actually make sense, even if its a pod - you can plug a couple of pedals into any decent clean amp and get a sound you are used to and know, and while your engl may technically be superiour, i know i would go for a tried and tested sound (which i have done, the first couple of gigs i did with my JCM2000 i was using a rat as the amp was new and i knew exactly how the rat sounded)

the other part is sounds a valve amp dosent do, like fuzz, so i use fuzz pedals to get a different sound from the amp, to suit the sound i want to hear or what suits a song, maybe transistorey and not the 'tone' of the distortion from a valve head, but still awesome sounding, both have their places

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Guest Bailz
stand on front of one of each cranked and tell me which seems louder to you...

Y'see, that's the difference right there. You stated that one of them seems louder there but before you said that they were louder.

I'm also perfectly aware that valve amps sound louder, owning SS amps, hybrids and now valves.

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Guest lime ruined my life
Y'see' date=' that's the difference right there. You stated that one of them seems louder there but before you said that they were louder.

I'm also perfectly aware that valve amps sound louder, owning SS amps, hybrids and now valves.[/quote']

Technically, "seeming louder" is actually "being" louder. Loudness is a perceptive concept, if a sound is perceived as louder, it IS therefore louder. Using this standardised definition of loudness often means the use of words such as "loud" and "amplitude" and also "power" should be used very carefully. It all arises from the fact that our ears are more responsive at some frequencies than at others. if you google equal loudness curve, you'll notice there's a big dip at around 4k, which means you're ears are most responsive at around that frequency. Different amps will contain more or less of certain harmonics.

However, if a 50 w valve amp sounds louder than a 50 w ss amp, it is defined as BEING louder, which kind of makes sense now doesn't it? when you think about it?

hope that clears up this stupid argument.

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Technically' date=' "seeming louder" is actually "being" louder. Loudness is a perceptive concept, if a sound is perceived as louder, it IS therefore louder. Using this standardised definition of loudness often means the use of words such as "loud" and "amplitude" and also "power" should be used very carefully. It all arises from the fact that our ears are more responsive at some frequencies than at others. if you google equal loudness curve, you'll notice there's a big dip at around 4k, which means you're ears are most responsive at around that frequency. Different amps will contain more or less of certain harmonics.

However, if a 50 w valve amp sounds louder than a 50 w ss amp, it is defined as BEING louder, which kind of makes sense now doesn't it? when you think about it?

hope that clears up this stupid argument.[/quote']

Volume (sound pressure) is measured in decibels. While loudness may be down to perception volume most certainly isn't.

This entire argument is based on the misconception that power directly equates to volume which it doesn't. It should also be noted that in theory a 100W amp is only twice as loud as an EQUIVALENT 10W amp.

The following are also important factors in how much volume is produced:

1) speaker efficiency

2) impedance

3) source signal

4) speaker dampening

Also the power of an amp may have little or no bearing on the volume. For instance we have a 1500W amp turned up full and driving a 50W RMS speaker. Yet the speaker does not blow up. So obviously the speaker is not allowing the amp to force the full 1500 watts through it :) And using the 1500W amp does not make the speaker any louder! If you doubt that this is the case then try explaining why Marshall supply an 4x12 Greenback cab with 25W speakers that can be safely powered by a 100W valve head?

Speaker dampening factor is usually overlooked when it comes to perceived loudness, and this is something that valves are pretty good at. They provide tight and accurate speaker control due to their clean and torquey power delivery, and when this is overdriven and breaks down it becomes the harmonic distortion that we like listening to as opposed the dirty power type of distortion that kills speakers..

Tight speaker control can be thought of as the contrast ratio of the dynamics, and that contrast is partially responsible for valve power being perceived as being louder.

PS It's also why crap tranny pod distortion never sounds loud enough even when it's drowning everything else out and it's volume can be measured at ear shattering levels LMAO!

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Guest lime ruined my life
Volume (sound pressure) is measured in decibels. While loudness may be down to perception volume most certainly isn't.

i didn't mention anything about "volume"' date=' anyway, isn't what you said just what my whole point was anyway?

volume, i think, has a few different standards of measurement, so saying volume alone isn't very explicit, which is why i avoided mentioning it.

Also the power of an amp may have little or no bearing on the volume. For instance we have a 1500W amp turned up full and driving a 50W RMS speaker. Yet the speaker does not blow up. So obviously the speaker is not allowing the amp to force the full 1500 watts through it And using the 1500W amp does not make the speaker any louder!

erm, is this amp your pa, and is there actually enough cabinets etc.to add up to 1500?

If you doubt that this is the case then try explaining why Marshall supply an 4x12 Greenback cab with 25W speakers that can be safely powered by a 100W valve head?

because there are FOUR 25 watt speakers?

25+25+25+25=100.

i actually didn't mean those questions to come across in an aggresive way, it just strikes me as extremely odd that you say you can use a 1500watt amp with a single 50 watt cab, i certainly would of put all my money on it blowing up.

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i didn't mention anything about "volume"' date=' anyway, isn't what you said just what my whole point was anyway?[/quote']

Yes that was your point. Why did you assume I was arguing with you?

volume' date=' i think, has a few different standards of measurement, so saying volume alone isn't very explicit, which is why i avoided mentioning it.[/quote']

Regardless of whether you measure length in feet or metres the same concept still apply! Ditto volume!

erm' date=' is this amp your pa, and is there actually enough cabinets etc.to add up to 1500?[/quote']

Our speakers can handle a total of 7000W RMS. Which means they can peak at around 12-14KW.

Each speaker pair (left and right) have their own individual power amp. Except for the bass bins where each bin has it's own mono briged power amp.

Measured at 8ohms our amps and speakers are spec'd as follows:

1500W stereo for 1" horns (tweeters with compression drivers)

1500W stereo for 8" high mids

2000W stereo for 12" low mids

1500W (3000W) mono bridged for dual 18" left bass bin

1500W (3000W) mono bridged for dual 18" right bass bin

1500W stereo for first set delays each side dual 8" + slot

1500W stereo for second set delays each side dual 8" + slot

2000W stereo for 2 stage monitors 12" + 5"

2000W stereo for 2 stage monitors 12" + 5"

1500W (3000W) mono bridged for microbass dual 10"

because there are FOUR 25 watt speakers?

25+25+25+25=100.

Ha ha ha ha ha if only it were that simple! Try reading impedance 101! For starters those speakers are 25W RMS which means they can probably draw about 40-50W each on peak. But due to the way electrical power and impedance works the same 50W will in fact drive all 4' date=' that's a simplification but not too far from the truth.

i actually didn't mean those questions to come across in an aggresive way, it just strikes me as extremely odd that you say you can use a 1500watt amp with a single 50 watt cab, i certainly would of put all my money on it blowing up.

Well it's been running all day every day for 2 years and it still works LOL.

The speaker, like any other electrical device will only draw the power it requires. At home you plug pretty much everything electrical into a 240V 13amp mains supply which is effectively 3.1KW. This includes the lightbulbs. But the lightbulb (which remember has no interal PSU or transformer) only draws whatever it is rated at be that 40W, 60W or whatever. So it is the same for a loudspeaker. The purpose of the power amp is just what it's name implies - power amplification. It's taking a very weak signal (one so weak you are unable to physically detect it even if you plug the cable into your mouth) and amplifies it into one that is powerful enough to supply the speaker with enough juice to move itself quickly in one direction, stop itself, reverse itself, etc, and push a heap of air around in the process, and do all this in a very controlled and hopefully accurate fashion.

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Yes that was your point. Why did you assume I was arguing with you?

Regardless of whether you measure length in feet or metres the same concept still apply! Ditto volume!

Our speakers can handle a total of 7000W RMS. Which means they can peak at around 12-14KW.

Holy shit that must be capable of being rediculously loud. How loud have you had it up to Flash? (although Im sure there are laws/limits to what you are allowed)

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Holy shit that must be capable of being rediculously loud. How loud have you had it up to Flash? (although Im sure there are laws/limits to what you are allowed)

One day Frank switched everything on, and turned up the jukebox faders, nothing came out, so he pushed the stereo fader up and still nothing came out, so he pushed it up further... still nothing... so he pushed it all the way up... still nothing. Then he suddenly noticed that the stereo was set to "off" so he pressed that and instantly and accidentally activated all 14K of power. I can't remember the tune, all I remember is shitting my pants.

A few times we've run it at theoretical half volume with recorded music and it's shaken downlighters out of the ceiling, and glasses off shelves. You know the intro to Symphoney for Distruction by Megadeth, where theres this little quiet vocal chorus of "aaah", well when that kicked in we heard this monumental "AAAAAAAAAARRRRRRGGGGGHHHHH!!!!!!!!", and then we knew what was in store for us when the guitar bass and drums all hit at once on the next bar. But it didn't. We were rolling about on the floor laughing because it was so stupidly loud but still painless. It was pure jackass TV LMAO!

But with extra dynamics of live music we need the available headroom. For instance on Saturday we were sitting with the bulk of the channel faders (except a few drums) at 0, most of the bus faders at around -10, and the stereo fader at -7. While this is by no means full up it is a very comfortable level with plenty of room for manouvre.

I reckon with a packer bar, and the right band we would probably run it about as high as we wanted with a little bit of headroom left over.

The monitors are typically sitting at between -10 and -5, but we can push them all the way up without any problems.

EDIT: I forgot to add - come to a decent sized gig, and stand near the front and the bass will flap your clothing around. The effect is very noticable, if your wearing an open jacket or shirt then it will flap around like you are being subjected to a stiff breeze!

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