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Would the exposure to bigger crowds not repay itself in other ways, though?

For instance, if they're playing to a crowd 4 times the amount they normally play to, they've got a big opportunity to flog merchandise/themselves/etc at people. If there's a buzz about something and they're playing at it, doesn't it also give them a reputation boost?

Fair enough, they might be getting paid peanuts for the gig, but surely they would have the opportunity to make a nice bit of cash out of CD sales/t-shirts/whatever?

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Would the exposure to bigger crowds not repay itself in other ways' date=' though?

For instance, if they're playing to a crowd 4 times the amount they normally play to, they've got a big opportunity to flog merchandise/themselves/etc at people. If there's a buzz about something and they're playing at it, doesn't it also give them a reputation boost?

Fair enough, they might be getting paid peanuts for the gig, but surely they would have the opportunity to make a nice bit of cash out of CD sales/t-shirts/whatever?[/quote']

Ah but in reality people dont buy a lot of merch at gigs unless its a named act or their mates band, playing to a bigger audience doesnt necessarily mean more sales, there are some gigs tnat you have to do for next to nothing or cheap because they're too good to miss out, but in general these are not local gigs.

Cheers

Stuart

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Would the exposure to bigger crowds not repay itself in other ways' date=' though?

For instance, if they're playing to a crowd 4 times the amount they normally play to, they've got a big opportunity to flog merchandise/themselves/etc at people. If there's a buzz about something and they're playing at it, doesn't it also give them a reputation boost?

Fair enough, they might be getting paid peanuts for the gig, but surely they would have the opportunity to make a nice bit of cash out of CD sales/t-shirts/whatever?[/quote']

Paying bands out of money made (door money, etc) should be considered as much of an expense as posters etc.

A nice bit of cash from cds/tshirts? Jesus Christ, You're assuming that every band has CDs and tshirts, and that people will buy so much of them that it covers the cost of

1. Making the CDs/Tshirts

2. Petrol Money/Bus Fare/Etc

3. Money spent on practising

4. Strings, Plectrums, etc

5. The promotion you're suggesting should be done

6. Food, should the band have had to travel

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Well, we're speaking push coming to shove here.

If you're assuming :

out

150 - advertising

150 - headline touring band, tipped for success, etc

50 - support touring band

100 - promoters own time (say 20 hours - minimum wage)

120 - paying two people to flyer outside gigs for 6 nights, 10/night

40 - venue hire fee (let's assume the tunnels)

total : 610

in (to break even)

153 people @ 4 = 612

You need 153 people through the door to turn a profit - should the local band be getting paid, or should their payment be the fact that they're playing to a big audience in a venue that looks packed?

The numbers get worse as you go up..

out

250 - higher advertising costs, to reflect the bigger name band

500 - headline touring band, tipped for success, etc

100 - support touring band

100 - promoters own time (say 20 hours - minimum wage)

120 - paying two people to flyer outside gigs for 6 nights, 10/night

40 - venue hire fee (say the tunnels again)

total = 1110

in (to break even)

185 people @ 6

And the local bands still should be paid if the gig loses money (perhaps a significant 3 figure amount) for the promoter?

Arguably, the venue should be contributing a cut of the bar sales to help things out - but most venues here aren't rolling in money to be able to do that, so that's not really much of a realistic answer.

Personally speaking, I'm not surprised most of the gigs put on here are for fun, because it seems simply impossible to make a living out of doing it unless you've got other sources of income. That's probably also why a lot of bands miss out on coming up here, simply because no-one's willing to offer them the money as they know corners will have to be cut somewhere.

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Well' date=' we're speaking push coming to shove here.

If you're assuming :

[u']out

150 - advertising

150 - headline touring band, tipped for success, etc

50 - support touring band

100 - promoters own time (say 20 hours - minimum wage)

120 - paying two people to flyer outside gigs for 6 nights, 10/night

40 - venue hire fee (let's assume the tunnels)

total : 610

in (to break even)

153 people @ 4 = 612

You need 153 people through the door to turn a profit - should the local band be getting paid, or should their payment be the fact that they're playing to a big audience in a venue that looks packed?

The numbers get worse as you go up..

out

250 - higher advertising costs, to reflect the bigger name band

500 - headline touring band, tipped for success, etc

100 - support touring band

100 - promoters own time (say 20 hours - minimum wage)

120 - paying two people to flyer outside gigs for 6 nights, 10/night

40 - venue hire fee (say the tunnels again)

total = 1110

in (to break even)

185 people @ 6

And the local bands still should be paid if the gig loses money (perhaps a significant 3 figure amount) for the promoter?

Arguably, the venue should be contributing a cut of the bar sales to help things out - but most venues here aren't rolling in money to be able to do that, so that's not really much of a realistic answer.

Personally speaking, I'm not surprised most of the gigs put on here are for fun, because it seems simply impossible to make a living out of doing it unless you've got other sources of income. That's probably also why a lot of bands miss out on coming up here, simply because no-one's willing to offer them the money as they know corners will have to be cut somewhere.

Promoter's own time? I thought it was standard business practice to pay those you have employed/working for you before taking your own slice of the pie.

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Promoter's own time? I thought it was standard business practice to pay those you have employed/working for you before taking your own slice of the pie.

depends on what you believe, i guess. it's arguable that seeing as the bands are only contracted to you to play half an hour set plus a soundcheck and aren't held at the venue otherwise, then they should be simply paid for their time.

and remeber, this is speaking professional promotion - if the promoter wasn't getting his own slice of the pie, he would be off doing something else, hence the argument that if he wasn't there (this applies in aberdeen, not so much elsewhere), the gig wouldn't exist and therefore the band wouldn't be getting the opportunity anyway.

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Jesus Christ! You speak some pish cloud! Go take a break or a holiday or something and come back when you can speak some sense.Your asking for people to comment and then nit picking everything they say as if what they have just said has been disrigarded.

Do you actually understand what your asking/understand what people are saying in reply?

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No, I really don't understand it - hence the questions.

Here's a question then :

Say there's a night at the Tunnels that attracts 200 people. Say the promoter is left with 400 once his/her costs have been covered and the touring bands have been paid what they were guarenteed. Would it be fair for the promoter to pay the local bands 40 each and then keep the rest to himself?

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A local band playing a local show should at least aid in promotion, doing whatever they can, whether it be putting up posters, handing out flyers or just spreading the news of the gig via word of mouth. There is no way you will make a name for yourself within or out with the city without actually trying to promote. Whether or not you get paid at the gig should be a totally mute point, a nice bonus even. That is of course unless you are about to head on a tour; when a bit of extra cash could come in handy for. Otherwise the only main concern for a band should be the quality of the music they are putting onto the stage.

The only time to me when payment becomes an issue is if you are a touring band, and that you require to get money in order to make it to the next gig, or even to get home. Playing music should not be primarily about money, it is a necessary evil which makes the world go round, but it's not the primary point of being in a performing act.

From the promotion side of things, I think a fair few of the promoters in Aberdeen do a very good job of reaching audiences. A good example of this was the last Black Box Filthpact gig at the moorings, a niche gig, yet still very well attended. With a fair few people who do not post on this forum, and all in all a very good night. This good attendance resulted in us (evac) getting paid somthing like 56 pounds, which we promptly attempted to return, as we felt this was a ridiculous sum to be paying a local band.

Music and promotion of music arent businesses, and they should not be treated as such. The monetry issue is there, but there is not point in doing it if all you aim to achieve is a quick influx of money, because that simply does not happen.

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I personally don't care as a band member whether i get paid for a 'local' gig night, or sometimes even in the case of supporting touring bands. It really depends on the situation. If i was playing outside aberdeen i'd want petrol money and a place to kip at least.

The money at this level of music is negligable, for me its all about the exposure that playing a higher profile gig might generate. Lets face it, none of us can live off local gig earnings, 30 doesn't go far when split between 4 guys.

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Looking at P&L sheets for gigs will give you nightmares....

To be honest in Aberdeen you can make a shit load more money promoting local acts than touring acts.

Personally i think that it is too easy to get a gig in Aberdeen and that a lot of bands don`t hone their skills practicing and working on their music.

I agree with Brian that it is becoming harder and harder to find places to put up posters in Aberdeen and thus other means have to be found. Local press misprint more than they print and this is also someting that is very frustrating.

Cloud is actually not a million miles from the ballpark but has darted off at tangents which does harm to his points.

We pay national ad contributions for all of our gigs and thus they appear in the music press..... however it would seem that the vast majority of gig goers in Aberdeen do not read the music press.

A few years back Mogwai's Manager commented that there were now so many things for people to do as an escape that something had to give. Playstations games and various other things have taken over and a lot of people would rather play GTA 3 for 4 days straight rather than go to a gig.

These things you cannot change.

One thing that baffled me for ages was that when I went in the other day to One Up I brought up the subject of Radio 2 live from Aberdeen. An event which was free to the public and covered on Radio and ALL local press. Moshulu brochures advertising such event were on the counter and the buzz surrounding the event had gone on for about 2 months with people trying to work out which artists were playing and which were true.

YET........ I asked 4 people that work in One Up before any of them knew anything about it.

------TO CLARIFY---- I love One Up..... I used to be the floor manager a while back and thus I really do feel that it is the best record shop north of Glasgow.

HOWEVER if people aren`t interested in finding out constant music news then you can't force it upon them....

You can lead a horse to water but you can't make it drink!

DISCUSS?!?!

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Surely the promoter should be able to guestimate the lowest number of punters through the door to turn a profit for himself? From this he can then work out how much to agree to pay everyone and still take something home.

On the subject of merch surely having to make a large outlay intially on more stock that you can sell over time would be better than getting stock produced for specific shows? If the band isn't playing a gig for a while stick it up for sale on the band's website, as people who like the band will tell others to check out the website, especially if they have tracks you can listen to, see the merch available and maybe buy some if they like said band, they will then tell other friends and so on.

I think milner is on the right track with the street team, give them some freebies, something no one else has, maybe even free entry to a gig or two, cheap promotion with minimal outlay more punters through the door and a bigger audience, even if they don't stay for all the bands, you still have the money they paid to get in the door.

It maybe idealistic and far from the truth, but it makes sense.

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Cloud your figures are buillshit. That's why you are confused. The big problem is the top figure the 150 or 250 figure. What is that supposed to be exactly, and why would it cost more for a bigger name band?

If for example you find that you need 153 people in the tunnels to cover your 600 cost and that doesn't leave anything to pay a local suport then reduce your cost to 500 DOH! If you think you are going to get less that the 152 people in then reduce your cost to 450, or 400. Alternatively your could try sticking 50p on your ticket price.

This isn't exactly rocket science...

You also need to keep records of what night and point in the month the gig was on, what you've done promotion wise, who the support were etc etc and how many people attended. The you have some data to work with. You can also ask people at the door "How did you find out about this gig?" "What made you decide to attend this gig?" and so forth. Mark Nicol used to do that and use it to appropriate the money between the support bands.

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That's something else Chris actually - should (local) bands be doing their own promotion' date=' outside of putting it on their website and telling people? Part of me says yes, if they expect a decent payment, but part of me is saying no because it's not their job to be promoting, it's their job to be playing at the gig in question.

But I really don't know..opinions?[/quote']

Bands should promote themselves so that when people see their name on a poster they might know who they are. Promoters promote gigs but if nobody knows who the band are they're just wasting ink putting their name on the bill.

I've had two bands, you heard me TWO, giving me their details for the Granite City Guide, which would involve firing off an email with their band name and the url for their website/myspace page or even just their biog, the work of seconds and a financial cost of 0 but bands can't even be bothered to do that.

Seems like it's not just the punters that are apathetic in Aberdeen.

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depends on what you believe' date=' i guess. it's arguable that seeing as the bands are only contracted to you to play half an hour set plus a soundcheck and aren't held at the venue otherwise, then they should be simply paid for their time.

and remeber, this is speaking professional promotion - if the promoter wasn't getting his own slice of the pie, he would be off doing something else, hence the argument that if he wasn't there (this applies in aberdeen, not so much elsewhere), the gig wouldn't exist and therefore the band wouldn't be getting the opportunity anyway.[/quote']

It's the promoters job to take the risk. They get the profits from a well attended gig and take the losses on a badly attended gig.

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No' date=' I really don't understand it - hence the questions.

Here's a question then :

Say there's a night at the Tunnels that attracts 200 people. Say the promoter is left with 400 once his/her costs have been covered and the touring bands have been paid what they were guarenteed. Would it be fair for the promoter to pay the local bands 40 each and then keep the rest to himself?[/quote']

It depends on what has been agreed with the bands beforehand, if he agreed to pay them all 40 or 10% of the profits, then it's entirely fair, and no doubt some of the promoters profits will go towards paying the expenses on gigs which don't make a profit.

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Would the exposure to bigger crowds not repay itself in other ways' date=' though?

For instance, if they're playing to a crowd 4 times the amount they normally play to, they've got a big opportunity to flog merchandise/themselves/etc at people. If there's a buzz about something and they're playing at it, doesn't it also give them a reputation boost?

Fair enough, they might be getting paid peanuts for the gig, but surely they would have the opportunity to make a nice bit of cash out of CD sales/t-shirts/whatever?[/quote']

they wouldn't have any merchandise to sell because they have no money to get anything made!

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depends on what you believe' date=' i guess. it's arguable that seeing as the bands are only contracted to you to play half an hour set plus a soundcheck and aren't held at the venue otherwise, then they should be simply paid for their time. [/quote']

so who paid for the guitars/drums/bass, rehearsal rooms, transport, etc......

did the bands just meet the night before and say "lets be in a band", turn up and have songs to play? of course not. they spent THEIR free time and money doing something because (usually) they love it. and to be any good, they usually spend a LOT of time rehearsing, etc.

do the bands charge the promoter say, 4 hours extra time for speaking to their mates and other people in the pub/clubs etc to ensure an audience? is that purely for the promoters benefit or the bands too?

tbh, any1 who is involved in local music(band wise at least) are highly unlikely to make any kind of real money out of it.

its for the love, man

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Well' date=' 150 is a "ideal" number - getting really good flyers that people take notice of (personal experience I guess, people don't really pay much attention to paper flyers, and they're not much use in the rain. And of course, people always take card flyers for other reasons..), paying for decent A3 colour posters printed on decent paper, paying for CD's to hand out, and paying someone to help for a few hours flyering.

[/quote']

For Obedience School we get 5000 double-sided card flyers for about 60. A3 colour posters from Repro cost about 15 for 30. So we spend about 75 on promotional materials and put in all the work ourselves. so that's half the money you're suggesting for the same level of quality.

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tbh' date=' any1 who is involved in local music(band wise at least) are highly unlikely to make any kind of real money out of it.

its for the love, man[/quote']

exactly so why is everyone being so pissy about getting paid 25-40 for a gig in aberdeen?

Personally i would rather play a gig for free to a packed audience than an empty one for a heap of money. Bands can make money off of merch and cds if they get their asses in gear gig money at this level only usualy covers enough for the band to get plastered afterwards. (especailly playing in the moorings :) )

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And people wonder why I have no desire to ever be in a band...

It's interesting to see that people are drawn right down the middle as far as being paid for local gigs go - some people being willing to take the opportunity of a decent support in exchange for possibly nothing, and other people seeing it as a mortal insult.

Another interesting link for people.

http://www.morrissey-solo.com/article.pl?sid=03/04/27/1615232

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