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Ok, where should we record?


Hog

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did you do any work wit idlewild' date=' when they recorded in cornwall? also which oasis album did you work on[/quote']

Yes I did work with Idlewild in Cornwall (Sawmills) Oasis recorded some of the new Album at Sawmills But I wasnt there for that one.

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and all kinds of Chinese microphones from the likes of AT' date=' Rode, SE etc.[/quote']

Ooh...Rode are 100% manufactured in Australia, no chinese parts whatsoever ;) Theres a good reason why they're cheap.

I think there is still a lot of people out there who will settle for second (or fifth) best when it comes to recording. A lot of local bands don't even have a 4 track these days, so when they see something like captain toms they think its amazing! A lot of bands don't want to spend 3 weeks finding the sweet spot in the room for the kit to be set up in, and just want to get in and bang out their stuff. Of course they then wonder why it doesn't sound like their CD's at home!

Theres definitely a place for budget studios though (I just wish they'd take down their price!) but yes the "market" is full of chancers conning youngsters out of their hard earned cash, churning out poor quality recordings....but while the bands are willing to hand over the money (in most cases its all they can afford) it will continue. No bands in Aberdeen are recording for major releases or record label auditions, so I guess the quality only matters to the 7 people who bought the CDR from the gig for 1. :)

All I don't understand is why the price of budget studios is now not far from pro studios....my vision was to open a budget studio and charge around 12-15 per hour...but the more I learn about the recording industry, the more I realise one less inadequate studio in the world is probably a good thing ;)

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Is the Byre perfect and we in Aberdeen not???

hey Andrew! do you really think that your diatribes against Aberdeen studios are gonna attract customers? I respect your point of view, and you have every right to express it, but do you really think that you will endear yourself to Aberdeen based bands if all you spend your time on is elitist technology stuff ?? Where is your soul, man ? Where is your heart and your joy about the creativity in music ? Can you only see opportunities to state "how much better the byre is than everyone else because of all our cool expensive kit" ???

SO, come on, lighten up ! Every studio doesnt have to be exactly like yours to be valid - or does it ? If you have something constructive to add to the debate, then it is about time we heard it, rather than your usual complaints.

cheers

Nathan

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All I don't understand is why the price of budget studios is now not far from pro studios....my vision was to open a budget studio and charge around 12-15 per hour...but the more I learn about the recording industry' date=' the more I realise one less inadequate studio in the world is probably a good thing ;)[/quote']

Fuck that's so easy to answer. It all boils down to economics. See 12-15 per hour might sound a lot, but how many billable hours would you end up working? And how many non-billable hours? And once the sum of billable and non-billable approach 70 per week then there isn't any time to add more billable hours without killing yourself.

And how many weeks a year. And then there's consumables, CDs, cables, skins etc...

And you have to keep your equipment working and replace it when it breaks.

And there's all that soundproofing and sound control to look after too.

Of course you'd probably borrow some money to fund all your cheap and nasty gear, and have to repay that loan plus interest. And banks don't give competitive rates to this type of venture. Because it's high risk.

And you have to pay heat, light and power.

And remember that you have to keep books otherwise you'll go to jail, and that will take you at least 4 hours per week to do properly. Unless you pay someone else who charges you a lot more than 15 per hour.

And you have to pay tax.

And you may have to charge VAT which would add 17.5% to your price straight off making your 15 per hour more like 18 per hour, but you don't get to keep the VAT - no that goes to the government.

And at the end of the day you still have to pay your rent/mortgage and feed your family.

So it all boils down to economics. Which is why even budget studios charge over 20 per hour. Because they have to.

Thing is that someone with ~500K and time on their hands can purpose build/convert a studio, and stock it with the finest of gear... or thereabouts. They don't have rent to pay either, and they haven't borrowed any money so they don't have to pay any interest. So they can charge 25 per hour, and be fussy enough to only work billable hours (because their equipment is good), and still make enough to live comfortably doing something they enjoy.

Which is why most studios whether good or bad, state of the art, or full of cheap crap, all charge pretty much the same rates.

Having said that a decent engineer in a crap studio will probably produce as good if not better results that a crap engineer in a decent studio. BUT why bother when you can get a good engineer in a good studio for the same price??? And anyway - what would a good engineer be doing in a crap studio?

So Keilan - don't you just love how subtly economics and market forces play with our lives?

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SO' date=' come on, lighten up ! Every studio doesnt have to be exactly like yours to be valid - or does it ?[/quote']

I think the problem was you claimed to get results that sounded exactly the same as the best studios in the country. Which is unrealistic at best if not just wildly exaggerated.

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I think the problem was you claimed to get results that sounded exactly the same as the best studios in the country. Which is unrealistic at best if not just wildly exaggerated.

Well, if that was true, wouldn't there be millions of studios just like "Oceanrock" and very few decent studios?

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Quote: "Andrew! do you really think that your diatribes against Aberdeen studios are gonna attract customers?"

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Sorry, what diatribe? I did not mention anybody's studio, nor do I intend to. I do not know any of the Aberdeen studios and I have not heard any product coming from your studio or anybody elses, so I am in no position to comment on your skills or those of anybody else. Nor indeed have I done so. I commented on your statement "we get the results that top UK studios get."

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Quote: "Can you only see opportunities to state "how much better the byre is than everyone else because of all our cool expensive kit" ???"

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At no time have I listed anybody's kit - not ours or anybody else's. I was making general points about demo studios and their viability. At no time did I refer to our studio and I certainly do not post on forums to tout for trade - I do so because I find the subject of making music and recording music interesting. As I have been doing it for a few years now, I feel that I have something to add that might be of benifit. It is an interesting subject and as I have been doing this job since the first days of multitracking, perhaps something I have to add might be of use to somebody somewhere. Who knows!

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Quote: "If you have something constructive to add to the debate, then it is about time we heard it, rather than your usual complaints."

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I am not aware of making complaints and certainly not about other people's studios. Normally, what you do in your studio would be entirely your business and I would be well advised to not comment on you or anybody else. But you decided to plaster advertising for your studio all over this forum with wild statements like

"At our studio, we get the results that top UK studios get: - in the quality of the performances and in the combined skill of the artists and the production."

Having set yourself up for comment with such a statement, you can hardly complain when someone examins that statement in detail. That's the problem with using a forum as a form of advertising - you can make a statement like that, but then everybody can come back at you. Using a forum as a means of advertising can be something of a boomerang!

I do not think it is wise to make a claim like "We get the results that top UK studios get!" If I were to make such a claim, I would be asking others to take me to task on such a claim. They would be justified in asking if we can do A for V? Can we encode 5.1 in all formats? Can we master DVD-A and SA-CD? Can we author video DVDs? Do we have the space to record a full orchestra? Can we provide a full orchestra with headphones? Does each musician have his or her own fold-back mix and can they adjust the mix themselves? Can we provide video facilities? Is there a rest room and green room for all musicians? Is there a bar?

One could then move on to standard studio instruments: Do we have a full concert grand? Do we have a vintage organ? Do we have a selection of vintage E-pianos like a Rhodes and a Wurlitzer? Do we have vintage synths like Moogs and ARPs?

These are all questions that ANY large inner-city studio can answer 'Yes' to. I can answer yes to some and no to others. With just 100 sq m live space, we certainly cannot record a full orchetra and I very much doubt that Nathan can either! There are only four studios in the UK that can and they are Abbey, Air, Whitfield Street (just) and Angel (at a pinch).

A large inner city studio, be it in London, Berlin, New York or Nashville, is a very different beast to anything in Scotland, your studio, our studio or any other Scotish studio. Prices are nearly all well above 3,000 for an eight hour day and all have a large variety of rooms at different prices. All of them have space for a full orchetra. All are networked with all major film studios around the World, so that daily rushes from a film shoot in LA or New Zealand can be played out in the studio for the A for V work to be done quickly.

The Abbey costs 3,600 plus VAT for the large room, but as Mike Price stated (he recorded Lord of the Rings there and is the 'Music for Dance' link below) "When the orchestra costs 120,000 a day, the rent for the studio is nothing. But if they hold you up for an hour because something is not working, that can mean an extra 20,000 in costs."

And if it is personal skills you are talking about, the staff in all these places have a classical musical education as well as engineering degrees. Even I have to roll up my sleeves and get down and dirty with Bach and Beethoven now and again. Right now, whilst the main room is being used for some film work, I am editing Bach from an EDL written all over a score (which is why I am taking time out to post to you - Bach wrote a lot of notes, so I am happy for the break!)

As for samples of music - studios (ours, Nathen's or anybody eles's) do not own or have access to the rights to the music their customers record, but here are some links:

http://www.simbioticstore.com/spokersloan/index.html?s=home&m=&c=viewitem&item_id=6419%20#

http://www.musicfordance.com/ (Vol 5 was recorded and mixed here and some of the tracks were later used for a major film release.)

http://www.theratpacksinger.co.uk/txt/download.html

Unfortunately, not everyone who records here wants to have their music posted all over forums.

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Quote Flash (I always thought Flash was the dog from Dukes of Hazzard BTW): "Thing is that someone with ~500K and time on their hands can purpose build/convert a studio, and stock it with the finest of gear... or thereabouts. They don't have rent to pay either, and they haven't borrowed any money so they don't have to pay any interest. So they can charge 25 per hour, and be fussy enough to only work billable hours (because their equipment is good), and still make enough to live comfortably doing something they enjoy."

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Well, that sounds a bit like . . . well, never mind! But yes! That's how the music business works. Cash. Nearly everybody who borrows money in this game sinks like a stone. The economics of the music business are very different to anything else. Some of the reasons are:

1. The whole business is international. Records get sold in every country and gigs get played in every country. Keeping up to date (or ahead) of taxes in all countries requires black figures in bank accounts. Nothing stops you dead like an unpaid tax bill!

2. Income can be everything one year and nothing the next. You can spend years getting nowhere with your career (studio or whatever) and then do a project for points and see it go platinum. Suddenly you have points on a major hit and everybody wants to know you and use your sevices - well, for a few months at least. Then it's back to nothing for a while - and the last thing you need is to loose all that good money because you bought the gear on the slate!

3. There are just too many wide boys out there. You can give no credit and you'll get no credit.

4. You'd be suprised just how much leverage cash can give you in this business. Buy a new car cash, I mean real cash, not a piece of paper, and they'll give you what? 10 - 15 - 20% off? Unless it's a Rover or something built in Korea, that's the best you'll get. Now buy a new mixing desk from a manufacturer who does not know if he can meet his wage bill that month. Hire a band from an agent who is avoiding the balif. Hire a studio that has a mortgage or rent to pay and has not seen a good customer in months. Book a session musician that hasn't eaten in days. They will open at 50 points . . .

5. Many musicians, when they are faced with getting lots of money suddenly from a successful tour or a good song, will 'forget' to pay their taxes. They think, if they deal in cash, somehow the taxman will not notice. They are fools, but you will have to take their cash anyway.

So yes, the music business is very up and down. I've had friends buy castles one year and have nothing left the next. Hanging onto those Pennies is a full time job and needs a clear head. No binges, no parties and no waffle dust!

And Nathen - there's always a beer or two here keeping cool for you . . .

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Well!!!!!! Phew! Best thread for a long time.

Flash pretty much summed up what it is like to run a business...a piece of piss it is not. Sometimes I feel like I would rather work in McDonalds than run a business.

I know nothing about running a studio but from what I have heard, it is far from easy.

It sounds like Oceanrock studios could be a good option for people but I havent heard any samples

Toms...well, we could record there whenever, its not expensive.

3 studios that Im sure offer a different service for their customers.

Apart from the "Top studio quality" comment, I think that some of you guys are jumping down Nathan's throat. No need to be presumptious.

PS... I dont think that Andrew (Byre) or Mark (MTA) are having a go, just having an interesting conversation.

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Correct Hog :D Both Andrew and I have been to London Studios and Know the quality of them. and to say you can get the same quality in a studio steup with a small outlay of 32k is really a bit of a joke to anyone who knows about Studio's and recording. I am just a sound geek really ;)

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Cloud, my dear friend..

Question for oceanrock studios :

Is there 32K worth of equipment in the studio' date=' or is 32K the figure for the "complete" studio including any building work/etc?[/quote']

Why do you ask my friend ? is it just more information for you to have a go at ?? or are you genuinely interested in trying to help someone with their business. I hope its the last one.

It would be sad to think that you sit there in bitterness all the time with nothing better to do!!

Tell you what Cloud, book some time in our studio and find out for yourself !!

Your dear friend

nathan

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Hi folks!!

Thanks Andrew for your notes. I am glad that you have brought up the point about ownership and distribution of sound samples. My understanding of mechanical copyright is that unless the studio has taken out a specific contract with the artist then samples cannot be put on websites. and thus be "mechanically copied". Is that the reason? Anyway, gotta go, busy in the studio for the next wee while but I will be back to join in the debate soon.

Cheers

nathan

ps. Andrew, am currently writing an arrangement of Toccata & Fugue by our mutual friend J.S. Bach for finger-tappin !! :cheers:

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Why do you ask my friend ? is it just more information for you to have a go at ?? or are you genuinely interested in trying to help someone with their business. I hope its the last one.

It would be sad to think that you sit there in bitterness all the time with nothing better to do!!

Tell you what Cloud' date=' book some time in our studio and find out for yourself !![/quote']

Why the aggressive attitude towards a simple question? You seem very keen to push the amount of money spent on the studio, so why not answer the simple question? You do seem to be avoiding the difficult questions posed for some reason, but I dare not speculate as to why.

As for booking some time in your studio - no thanks, I can rehearse in a decent place for far less than 24/hour and the person running the show there would be more than happy to give free advice on things like timing, so I really wouldn't gain any benefit at all. As for recording, well, I don't buy things without checking out the product first ;)

And as for the issue of posting MP3's/etc - I'm sure the bands who have recorded at your studio would be more than happy to let you use 30 second samples of their work in order for you to effectively promote the place.

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ps. Andrew' date=' am currently writing an arrangement of Toccata & Fugue by our mutual friend J.S. Bach for finger-tappin !! :cheers:[/quote']

Save yourself some time and hassle my friend, our mutual friend Dave Celentano has done the latter for you :D

You'll find the said piece completely transcribed for finger tapping in this book (along with others): Rock Around The Classics

Andy

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Ok here's a good one....just spoke to two current members of Fubar (2 years +) and they havent recorded at oceanrocks... :nono:

Hmmm....

edit: Ronz has been in Fubar from day one and has never recorded at that studio.....

Cant imagine why anyone would name drop Fubar.....they suck!!!

Sorry Ronz... :D

edit2: Oh and you shouldnt link to sites where they still use your real name Norman

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Thanks Andrew for your notes. I am glad that you have brought up the point about ownership and distribution of sound samples. My understanding of mechanical copyright is that unless the studio has taken out a specific contract with the artist then samples cannot be put on websites. and thus be "mechanically copied". Is that the reason? Anyway' date=' gotta go, busy in the studio for the next wee while but I will be back to join in the debate soon.

Cheers

nathan

ps. Andrew, am currently writing an arrangement of Toccata & Fugue by our mutual friend J.S. Bach for finger-tappin !! :cheers:[/quote']

Actually I'm pretty sure you can put up sound samples as long as they're soundbytes, I'm pretty sure unless they're under 30 seconds then they're OK with MCPS, 30 seconds of something to give a decent sound is enough I'd say.

I was speaking to a friend who has his own studio, one he has used to produce some pretty decent selling albums, his current setup cost him about 30k, but that is because he knows what he requires and doesnt have to care to anyone elses needs, he said for a home studio setup, providing you know what you want then you can put together a London quality studio for around 30k, he has. However, he also said that if itr was a commercial studio and you had to open it up to the general populace (he also used to do this) then the costs shoot up. He basically bought the whole 30k setup this time from the sale of the desk he used to use commercially, so that should give you an idea. When his studio was running commercially he had people like Radiohead, Travis, Steve Howe, Steve Wilson and many others recording there. I would say Oceanrock could certainlly fill a gap on a local level, as long as people realise what they're getting wont be the same with the same options, where the Mill etc cant, which is in the recording of much heavier stuff which I've heard the Mill isnt quite as good at however I think the way you choose to market/advertise yourself really need to be improved.

Cheers

Stuart

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as long as people realise what they're getting wont be the same with the same options' date=' where the Mill etc cant, which is in the recording of much heavier stuff which I've heard the Mill isnt quite as good at however I think the way you choose to market/advertise yourself really need to be improved.

Cheers

Stuart[/quote']

Could you translate that Stuart? Im not getting what you mean... :help:

G...

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Fubar

Ok here's a good one....just spoke to two current members of Fubar (2 years +) and they havent recorded at oceanrocks... :nono:

Hmmm....

edit: Ronz has been in Fubar from day one and has never recorded at that studio.....

Cant imagine why anyone would name drop Fubar.....they suck!!!

Sorry Ronz... :D

Just to let u know, they used the facilities here 4 years ago while Ronnie was on a sabbatical. Fubar should never be dissed because they ALWAYS put on a great show and have a loyal fan base

cheers

nathan

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Could you translate that Stuart? Im not getting what you mean... :help:

G...

Aaah looking back for some reason bits of my post seemed to have got jumbled about, sorry using my gfs computer that does weird things.

I'm just saying that this studio seems tooled out for the heavier edge of the spectrum, and some people have told me that for heavier stuff the Mill isnt quite as good if its really crunching guitar type stuff. This may be wrong but a few people from different bands have told me that :)

On the whole I'd always recommend the Mill tho, Jo recorded her first album there and except for the sound on the last one done in Cava I think the Mill sound was the best.

Cheers

Stuart

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