The General Election

[lepeep]

I'm still trying to figure out the sentence!

[Cloud]

Those of you that still think in terms of 'Scotland' rather than 'United Kingdom' when you talk about countrys are gonna get us all killed one of these days.

Considering the precedent was set with the Irish War of Independence, which wasn't really a bloody war at all (I seem to recall a figure saying that there's been more deaths in Northern Ireland from terrorism than there was in the entire War of Independence/Civil War) - it's obvious that any independence bid these days is going to, at the very worst, take the line that the Slovene War of Independence did - which was resolved in a matter of days.

[Paranoid Android]

Those of you that still think in terms of 'Scotland' rather than 'United Kingdom' when you talk about countrys are gonna get us all killed one of these days.

well said

I'll be voting Lib Dem as I agree with them on the majority of their policies, although I actually think labour owuld do the best job on a couple of the most important issues to me.

THe SNP election broadcast last night didn't even mention a single policy of thiers I could never vote for them it would feel as wrong as voting for UKIP.

[Cloud]

But if you don't agree with independence, why are you voting anything but a Unionist/British party? Labour granted devolution in the first place, which has led to things considerably changing between Scotland and the rest of the UK (grants/tution fees, for example) - and the Lib Dems as far as I know also supported it. Should you not be voting for a party that seeks to end such an arrangement, as under a Labour/Lib Dem administration, the seperate parliaments will continue - with the inevitable result that the Union will break up sometime down the line?

[Paranoid Android]

I'm not against devolution, which is very different from independence, I am very pro euro and would actually like to see a single european state which some say would happen. Obviously i wouldn't vote ukip or tory. Actually i'd like to see a single global state, but unfortunately i fear the world will never be ready for this in my lifetime.

Your argument seems to suggest that if oyu have any view on scottish independance you should vote either snp, ukip or tory which is just stupid.

[Laxton's Superb]

the idea of a european state is quite exciting actually

[lepeep]

well said

Eh ?...

am I blind to punctuation this week ?

that sentence still makes no sense to me...

(this one : Those of you that still think in terms of 'Scotland' rather than 'United Kingdom' when you talk about countrys are gonna get us all killed one of these days. )

I lose it at "countrys are gonna get us all killed one of these days"

[lepeep]

the idea of a european state is quite exciting actually

now, there was my point a few pages back...

the SNP want "out of the UK" but in Europe ?

what's the difference ? being run by some other country, other than your own ?...

it does sound quite contradictory..but, I might have the wrong end of the stick.

[Paranoid Android]

Well i agreed with a certain element of what he said. I dont think we'll all get killed though.

[Cloud]

I'm not against devolution' date=' which is very different from independence[/quote']

What's the difference? Eventually, there's going to be a massive divide between Scotland and England in terms of laws - for instance, in a couple of years, the smoking laws will be different either side of the border. It's entirely possible that we could have different income tax rates, our legal system is different - it's not hard to see that eventually, Scotland and England are going to become vastly different parts of the UK, which would lend credibility to a bid for independence so we can control our own economy.

Devolution is the first step on the road to independence - even the SNP have accepted that as a fact now.

Your argument seems to suggest that if oyu have any view on scottish independance you should vote either snp, ukip or tory which is just stupid.

If you view it as a big deal, then you should - vote nationalist, you get a vastly different nation to the one south of the border. vote unionist, and you get similar laws passed, and vote for the "in the middle" choice - Labour, you might get a McLeish style leader (who was very keen on distancing Holyrood from Westminister), or a McConnell type leader (who is keen to maintain close links with Westminister).

Devolution was a great way for Labour to silence the nationalists in the short term - but in the long term, it's going to come back and hurt them.

[Cloud]

now' date=' there was my point a few pages back...

the SNP want "out of the UK" but in Europe ?

what's the difference ? being run by some other country, other than your own ?...

it does sound quite contradictory..but, I might have the wrong end of the stick.[/quote']

That's the reason I haven't joined the SNP, I'm not quite sure the entire future lies within the EU. Norway, Iceland and Switzerland haven't done too badly out of not being in the EU - although they are closely tied with it, I don't think it's a "must" to be part of it.

[Guest Bob]

now' date=' there was my point a few pages back...

the SNP want "out of the UK" but in Europe ?

what's the difference ? being run by some other country, other than your own ?...

it does sound quite contradictory..but, I might have the wrong end of the stick.[/quote']

Scotland would become an independant country in the EU. It's hardly rocket science, but for those of you who can't grasp this concept please look at the following similarly independant countries for examples.

Austria

Belgium

Cyprus

Czech Republic

Denmark

Estonia

Finland

France

Germany

Greece

Hungary

Ireland

Italy

Latvia

Lithuania

Luxembourg

Malta

Poland

Portugal

Slovakia

Slovenia

Spain

Sweden

The Netherlands

And of course, the UK. The difference would be that Scotland would be represented at the highest European level independent of the UK's other concerns/priorities which often seem to go completely against the needs of Scotland.

[lepeep]

well, when you put it like that, I wonder where all the fuss is coming from about the "superstate : Europe".

funny how "devolution is the first step to Independance"

yet, "being added to the Europe super state" can't be seen as the first step losing your independance

(sure, we'll still be scottish, but many lawys would be made over in Europe, Fiscal Policies, decided over there, FISHING policies decided there...)

or am I listening to UKIP too much (please, nooooo...noooooooooo !)

I just need to know more about

Independance from England Vs Aligning to Brussels making our Laws...

('scuse the basic language, I just want to know some "obvious" questions).

me, I say "fuck all borders".

[Guest Jake Wifebeater]

NK is also a threat' date=' communist government i believe, but i dont knwo anything about NK and what their plans are.[/quote']

Stalinist government. Massive, massive difference.

[Guest Bob]

well' date=' when you put it like that, I wonder where all the fuss is coming from about the "superstate : Europe".[/quote']

What fuss?

funny how "devolution is the first step to Independance"

yet' date=' "being added to the Europe super state" can't be seen as the first step losing your independance [/quote']

?

(sure' date=' we'll still be scottish, but many lawys would be made over in Europe, Fiscal Policies, decided over there, FISHING policies decided there...)[/quote']

Whatever laws are made in Europe are made in Europe regardless of whether Scotland is Independant. Why can you still not grasp this concept? The difference is the UK government was willing to sacrifice important Scottish industries whereas a Scottish government would have fought for them at a European level.

I just need to know more about

Independance from England Vs Aligning to Brussels making our Laws...

('scuse the basic language' date=' I just want to know some "obvious" questions).[/quote']

Well if they're so obvious why do you need to ask them? THE UK IS IN EUROPE!! Scotland would continue to be in the EU. Brussels would have no more interferance/power over Scotland than it currently holds by proxy through the UK government.

*sigh*

[lepeep]

Well if they're so obvious why do you need to ask them? THE UK IS IN EUROPE!! Scotland would continue to be in the EU. Brussels would have no more interferance/power over Scotland than it currently holds by proxy through the UK government.

*sigh*

Dont you just love it when people "e-condescend" you *sigh*...I fucking hate that *sigh* bollox.

I think you seem to miss the point of the whole "Europe" debate...

"Being in Europe" (the argument) is all about Brussels / the EU making the laws "being part of Europe" isn't about geographical fucking location, I FUCKING KNOW THAT...

So, when you hear that the SNP want to be "a Part of Europe", is that

a, NOT moving the country with massive propellers down into the middle of the Atlantic?

b, joining the EU and its ways of governance

c, being independent from England, and from Brussels, but "lugging into" conversations that the EU / Brussels will be having about fishing etc (and having fuck all say, because they are "not in the club" ?

Like I said, I was simply asking these questions, because the SNP don't seem to tell me the answers to the dichotomous situations they talk about.

*fart*

[El Pacino]

I will be voting for Labour to keep out the SNP.

SNP are a wasted vote in my book and the Scottish Parliament is a complete waste of time. In fact, what do they do at Hollyrood apart from raise our taxes so that we pay more than the rest of britain?

[Guest tv tanned]

Dont you just love it when people "e-condescend" you *sigh*...I fucking hate that *sigh* bollox.

I think you seem to miss the point of the whole "Europe" debate...

"Being in Europe" (the argument) is all about Brussels / the EU making the laws "being part of Europe" isn't about geographical fucking location' date=' I FUCKING KNOW THAT...

So, when you hear that the SNP want to be "a Part of Europe", is that

a, NOT moving the country with massive propellers down into the middle of the Atlantic?

b, joining the EU and its ways of governance

c, being independent from England, and from Brussels, but "lugging into" conversations that the EU / Brussels will be having about fishing etc (and having fuck all say, because they are "not in the club" ?

Like I said, I was simply asking these questions, because the SNP don't seem to tell me the answers to the dichotomous situations they talk about.

*fart*[/quote']

OK, let me ask you an 'obvious' question, are Estonia, Latvia and Lithuania more or less independent now than they were thirty years ago?

[lepeep]

jeez...

i ask a question (or three about the EU) and I am getting shat on...

Ask yourself, will Estonia and Latvia etc be wanting out of the EU in 20 years time ?

I don't know!

I actually don't know what I think about the EU, I love going to Europe on holiday, I think that if the UK took up the Euro, it'd be easier to trade with Europe etc...but, how would it effect our economy ? would it effect house prices ? would it effect the average wage ?

if we were forced to take up EU working hours, I think that would be a good thing!...

there are too many unknowns for me to give a stance either way, so hence me asking questions, that all the SNP people seem to know the answer to (to lead us to a utopia of independance and fair trade with all our neighbours)....

I'd still like to see little old scotland speak out against 5 other countries over fishing rights in the North Sea...

oh, and for alex to claim all the revenu on "our oil" (BP and Shell are just looking after it for us ?)

I love alex salmond, I think hes brilliant, a great speaker, I just wish his party wasn't so insular and backward.

nationality (to me) is one of the causes of woe and hatred in this world. like I said "fuck all borders".

[Guest tv tanned]

In fact' date=' what do they do at Hollyrood apart from raise our taxes so that we pay more than the rest of britain?[/quote']

Rather amazingly, Holyrood has almost no power over taxation, in fact the only power they do have is the ability to vary the basic rate of income tax by 3p either up or down. This mechanism has not yet been used by the Executive.

So all taxation law is made at Westminster. Council tax levels are set by individual local authorities.

I mean, if you're going to moan about something, at least have the requisite knowledge about it first so you don't look like an idiot eh?

[Guest tv tanned]

Ask yourself' date=' will Estonia and Latvia etc be wanting out of the EU in 20 years time ?

I don't know![/quote']

Bit of an irrelevant question really, but in the unlikely event that they did, what bearing does a hypothetical situation 20 years into the future have on the here and now?

I actually don't know what I think about the EU, I love going to Europe on holiday, I think that if the UK took up the Euro, it'd be easier to trade with Europe etc...but, how would it effect our economy ? would it effect house prices ? would it effect the average wage ?

Probably, but there would still be economic levers within the UK's own control. The UK doesn't exist in a bubble at present anyway, so most of the big economic decisions are influenced by international events.

I'd still like to see little old scotland speak out against 5 other countries over fishing rights in the North Sea...

Actually, all other EU countries get a say. Even landlocked states...

oh, and for alex to claim all the revenu on "our oil" (BP and Shell are just looking after it for us ?)

I already pointed this out, but Gordon Brown filled an 11billion black hole over the last two years with oil revenues. Even if Scotland were only entitled to 50% of that (the actual figure is closer to 75%) then it would have a significant impact.

I love alex salmond, I think hes brilliant, a great speaker, I just wish his party wasn't so insular and backward.

Funny, I thought Scotland taking control of its own affairs was a rather forward looking policy.

nationality (to me) is one of the causes of woe and hatred in this world. like I said "fuck all borders".

Even without nationality, do you assume territorial disputes never happened in the past, before the creation of the nation state and organised religion?

I'll give you a clue, the answer is - no.

[Guest Bob]

Dont you just love it when people "e-condescend" you *sigh*...I fucking hate that *sigh* bollox.

*sigh*

So' date=' when you hear that the SNP want to be "a Part of Europe", is that

a, NOT moving the country with massive propellers down into the middle of the Atlantic?

b, joining the EU and its ways of governance

c, being independent from England, and from Brussels, but "lugging into" conversations that the EU / Brussels will be having about fishing etc (and having fuck all say, because they are "not in the club" ?[/quote']

Option D (Explained again): Scotland would become an independant nation but remain in the EU, the European system that the UK (and Scotland by default) is already a part of.

Like I said' date=' I was simply asking these questions, because the SNP don't seem to tell me the answers to the dichotomous situations they talk about.[/quote']

It's not dichotomous at all. An independant Scotland would not take all the powers that Westminster currently holds, transfer them to Holyrood and then just hand them over to Brussels. You seem to think that Westminster and Brussels are interchangeable Parliaments when they're not. Brussels does not hold the same level or type of governance with European citizens than the Westminster government holds with the British populace.

[Guest Bob]

Actually' date=' all other EU countries get a say. Even landlocked states...[/quote']

Whereas Scotland doesn't, we have to ask the UK government to step in for us, and our fishing fleets are hardly a big priority. "Expendable" would be the word. It's like asking your neighbour to save your house from destruction. Why do they care? As long as their house is safe...

[Guest tv tanned]

Whereas Scotland doesn't' date=' we have to ask the UK government to step in for us, and our fishing fleets are hardly a big priority. "Expendable" would be the word. It's like asking your neighbour to save your house from destruction. Why do they care? As long as their house is safe...[/quote']

Expendable IS the word, Ted Heath's government in 1973 stated that in 'the wider context' the Scottish fishing fleet was expendable, and so we were marched into the CFP.

Fast forward twenty two years and the coastal communities fo Scotland are becoming ghost towns riven with poverty and destitution.

Expendable eh?

[lepeep]

Glad you boys have all the answers.

you are all talking about the "future", and yet, when I say something about "who'll want out of the EU in 20 years time" it's an " irrelevant question really".

I still can't see how little scotland who have ANY CLOUT in the EU.

I understand that the EU is supposed to be a collective, with "certain laws" developed by brussels, and with individual countries still having their own ways of working...but how long would that last?, over time, would certain laws be dictated to by the EU ?

and, as mr tanned seems to skip all the points he doesn't like, picking up on my last point, I think he missed the "one of" ("is one of the causes of woe and hatred ")...so yes, I do assume that Religion, personal possesions etc are also a cause of people wanting to fight each other...

I've said this before, I think humans are the worst animal on the planet. (but that's leaving the main point).

I can't see how an independant scotland would be any better off than it is just now.

alienation, isolation and insularity are not forward thinking.

why think that the "bigger beast" would be any better than "being stuck with england".

if we can't even negotioate the things we need with our own government, imagine joining a queue with 25 or so other people asking for their plight to be heard?....what chance would we have ?

Bob, option D, good luck then. (we can always sell them shortbread, whisky and tartan, eh. ho ho.)

just joking.

Quote away.