Flash@TMB

Taking everything into account Agreed it's not linear but the curve is quite gentle. 25K is the total maximum output of the all channels on all amps into 8ohms. These amps have a mechanism for setting their gain, this means you can limit the headroom you require. My inderstanding is that amps produce the least distortion usually around 1/2 power, using powerful amps and adjusting the gain according to the speaker facilitates use of the broadest cleanest part of the amps power spectrum. As far as the speakers themselves are concerned the total RMS figure is only 1600 watts per channel. The headroom or peak power figure taking impedance and gain settings into account is 3690 watts per channel, of VERY clean, effortless, and flexible power. The Funktion One speakers are extremely efficient and most of that power ends up shifting air. The large number of amps we're using, 6 in total means that every driver has it's own mono, or mono bridged channel with the exception of the double bass bins, where each bin containing a pair of 18" drivers is powered by it's own mono bridged amp; and the delay speakers where 3 drivers are powered by each channel. We're using a total of 16 drivers, 8 mono channels, and 2 mono bridged channels. Using mono channels means that the electronic producing the sound for L & R are entirely separate, so the end result is stereo but with negligible cross talk interference between channels. The outgoing system had 8 drivers and 4 mono channels. Flash

Oops yes we're going for 14yrs+ admission - however that will depend on demand. For high demand gigs I'd rather pack the bar with drinkers.

PA Yes we are interested. (virtually) All bookings for the bar will now be done through promoters as opposed to direct. Promoters will be entitled to charge ticket sales or door money, but all expenses must be covered by that pot. Live music will occur on Sat and Sundays. Sundays the bar will organise it's own jam session / open mic affair. Fridays we stage The Wrecking Ball, this is a Rock Night with a DJ. Mon-Thurs we operate as a bar only, but would be happy to stage a big name act if the opportunity arose. We are looking to work with 4 promoters and assign each a particular Sat of the month. Any 5th Saturdays will be set aside for special occasions. The stage is located centrally against the far wall. It's on two levels, 24" front 4' deep and 39" 6' deep riser. There's about 15 feet of width between the stacks. The stage has tremedous visual impact as it faces the front door from the other end of the room. The PA is a consists of Funktion One speakers and MC2 amps. This uses 2 double bass bins located under the front of the stage, with the top cabs mounted high up inside custom made units. There are 2 twin delay speakers about 2/3rds the way down the room where the sound from the main stacks has dispersed too far. These only comprise high and mid, as the bass travels just fine. One stage we have 6 wedges and a subwoofer. The desk is a Yamaha DM1000. There's a Behringer graphic will built in NA and the main compressor/limiter is a Behringer Composer Pro. Total power is 25KW. Yes that's TWENTY FIVE so read that part twice. Our workable capacity is a comfortable 200. Get in touch with me and we can arrange something. Flash

Power ratings don't indicate volume the same way as they used to. Back in the jurrasic period you got 1K, 2.5K, 5K, 15K rigs etc. Everything was pretty standard and the technology was geared towards dynamics as opposed to quality. Some people still tend to think along those lines. Also take into account that a 5K rig is NOT 2x as loud as a 2.5K rig! Power requirements increase exponentially with volume. If you draw a graph with volume in dB as the x axis and power as the y axis then the curve will tighten upwards towards the vertical. It actually takes 10x the power to reach 2x the volume! If we just wanted to increase the volume then the easy solution is more speakers as opposed to more power, because more speakers move more air! Power is simply there to increase the quality of the sound. An amp is rarely outputing anything like full power. So in some ways RMS is more relevevant than peak. Peak power is there to prevent distortion. Distortion will hurt peoples ears far sooner than volume. Distortion makes your ears ring. Distortion also blows speakers. A speaker will happily recieve slightly too much clean power without blowing. Problems occur when you use an amp that's too SMALL for the speakers. The other consideration is impedance. You need an amp that can deliver clean peak power to speakers. If the amp is rated at 4KW, that probably means 4KW at 4ohms. If the speakers are 16 ohm impedance then (correct me if I'm wrong Ian) the same amp will only be able to deliver 1KW of power to those speakers. So if the speakers have a peak requirement of 4KW then the amp is far too small and will distort when it tries to cough up the speakers peak power requriement, probably damaging or blowing the speaker with 'dirty power'. Some of the speakers we are using are rated at 16 ohms, considered to be high impedance therefore we need powerful amps. So the huge power is really about quality rather than volume. In order to address our volume requirements we are using more speakers than before. This system will have 6 horns, 8 mids, and 4 bass speakers. This breaks down as each main speaker stack has a horn, a high mid, a low mid, and a double bass bin. The double bass bins are located down on the floor underneath the front of the stage. Further down the room we have 2 delay speakers each of those has 2 horns and 2 mids. The bass happily makes it down the room on it's own, its only the high and mid that we have problems with due to the length of the room compared with height of the ceiling. Another benefit of the high power is that we can run these huge speakers (each horn on the main stack is 50W at 8ohms, more than the total power on a cheap HiFi) at very low volumes. The bass bins are rated at 6KW each!!!This enables our jukebox to output through the PA system instead of installing another set of amps and speakers. 25KW in a bar as small as The Moorings = HiFi quality sound from the PA (obviously it's also high quality kit), and the ability to make very small controlled movements of very large speaker cones, thus undistorted sound at jukebox level volumes. Another advantage of low distortion is that you can hear the person next to you speaking without them having to shout in your ear. You won't be able to hear someone a metre away though... This means that we can run the jukebox at a relatively high volume still allowing people to talk and order drinks, but keep everyone happy that they can hear the music properly. Hope this explains. Flash

One thing... Having venues close together is a big boost. People move between them throughout the course of the evening, and know in advance that they have the option of an easy change of scene. Although the new layout is classic mini venue, The Moorings will continue to operate primarily as a drinkers bar. We have approached 4 promoters and intend for each of them to run 1 Saturday per month, putting on a mixture of local bands from Aberdeen and new bands with good reputations from all over. On Fridays we will continue to host the Wrecking Ball. On Sundays we intend to offer short term residencies to local bands and also stage a jam session but in a slightly modified format. We may occasionally put on a bigger act on the odd weeknight, but aside from that weeknights will be given over to the jukebox. The jukebox will be broadcast through the new PA, the sound of the new PA is HiFi quality and it sounds just as good a low volumes. The bar will continue to offer it's selection of specialist spirits, bottled beers, and draught products.

I felt the same way last time the bar was refitted back in '94. It seemed like it was closed for months, my social life was in ruins Worse was when The Venue shut back in '89. This was in the pre Palace era and would be the equivalent of Moshulu closing down. The place was at the peak of it's powers, this was a disaster for us. I also got a real pang when I saw that RGU had transformed the Sloe Club into a student shop. You expect these places to be around for ever. Let your friend know that we are about a week ahead of schedule and this is only the second week. The target date for reopening wass the 14th Feb, but looks likely to be much sooner. It'll be worth it, everyone will be blown away!

And As of yesterday the builders managed to claw out another foot of width on the stage. The new stage is now going to be 3 feet wider than the old one, and is positioned exactly central. This will make a huge difference.

Unexpectedly we are ahead of schedule with the refurb. All the interior walls are down and it's now easier to get an idea of how the place will look when it's finished. It's not always clear how a job like this will turn out, because sometimes you run into structural issues when you strip everything back. Thankfully we've cleared all the major hurdles and, since some breaks went our way, the end result should exceed the original vision. The new stage looks like it's going to be 2 feet wider than the outgoing one in addition to being positioned centrally across the room, as opposed to stuck in the corner. The capacity appears to be dramatically increased without being altogether obvious. For a while it looked like there might be a pillar positioned in front of the RHS speaker stack (uugh) but when we opened the wall up there was no pillar as such, so the space is now wide open and pillarless (PHEW). The chimney turned out to hold 3 flue pipes, 2 of them very historical. The removal of these has created another 12sqft of floor space. It will be possible to see the entire stage from every where in the bar apart frm the toilets and the very extreme LHS of the room, although the LHS will still have a view of at least 3/4s the stage. The dancefloor is fuckin massive for a venue of our size and positioned right in front of the stage. I beggining to think that the place is really going to be transformed by all this. Watch this space. Flash

2 x vintage H&H 1200W power amps - 750 each. Two speaker stacks, each consists of 2 cabs: top cab JBL horn 2 x 15" JBL mid drivers base cab 1 x 18" JBL bass driver The cabs are carpeted plywood with foam lined heavy steel mesh grills. They are to all intents and purposes indestructable. When errected each stack stands over 6 feet (1.8meters) tall. The cabs and speaker drivers were recently serviced by Taylored Sound and the system was only used on 6 occasions since. 1500 total for both stacks 3 way active crossover switch with peak limiter - 150 Behringer Virtualiser Pro effects unit - 50 Behringer Composer Pro compressor, limiter, expander, gate unit - 50 Behringer Ultragraph 2 x 32 band graphic equaliser including spectrum analyser with mic and pink noise generator - 250 Yamaha 2 x 24 band graphic equaliser - 100 Spirit 24 channel mixing desk (yes twenty four channels), all preamped with direct outputs and in-outs on all channels. 6 aux ports - 1000 1 x Peavey 100 watts per channel monitor amp 2 x Peavey 100 watt monitor wedges 300 total for both the above 1 x flight case standard rack with wheels - 50 Also: 2 x Seinheiser vocal mics - 50 each 4 x spot mics - 20 each 4 x overhead condenser mics - 20 each 2 x kick drum mics - 20 each various boom mic stands (very tatty) - 5 each At 2.5KW this system is more than twice as powerful as that commonly employed by local touring bands. It is large enough to play virtually any bar type venue of up to 100 people. This PA is ruggedised and of industrial strength. It is a professional system and at a level above anything you'll see in the shops. If you want to buy the lot then 4000. All cables to wire the above together are included. The only thing not included is mic leads. Anyone that attended The Moorings Bar in 2003 has probably heard this rig. You'll also see similar JBL stacks installed in several other venues in Aberdeen and elsewhere. All components deinstalled and available for collection NOW. Flash

Already We are already shut. On the 4th we sold off most of our draught half price, then gave the rest away for free to those that were still around at midnight, in an assortment of containers. One guy went off home lugging a 36 gallon bucket of beer!!! The bar is likely to be closed for around 1 month, but it may be as long as 2 months worst case scenario. The builders are on a bonus to finish early. I'll post stuff here as soon as we reopen. The modifications are extensive: Widen the rear of the room out from 4 feet to 17 feet. Build a permanent stage 14 feet wide, 10 feet deep and 38" high positioned centrally across the rear of the room. Establish a dancefloor 17 feet x 15 feet immediately in front of the stage. Increase the number of seats, but make the seating removable in case we stage any really busy events. Increase the capacity to 200-250 people. Raise the ceiling to enable the sound to travel further. Remove the floor tiles and reinforce the floor. Gut both toilets and redo them in full stainless steel throughout. The ladies will retain all 4 cubicles. Create a second fire escape. Replace the roof at the rear of the premises with a sound proofed and insulate steel industrial roof running at a slope. Install a new hot air blown central heating system. Install new cold air intake and extract fans. Reposition the machines to afford maximum clear view of on stage activity. Extend the bar counter to improve access to the bar (although it was already the second longest bar counter in Aberdeen). Redecrate the place sympathetically. Install 25KW (yes TWENTY FIVE KW) PA system including delay speakers. Originally this was to be 20KW, but after testing the system out we determined that delay speakers were required to drive the sound the full length of the room when crowded. The modifications to open out the room will make the biggest difference to sound travel as currently less that 5% volume from any system will travel the full length of the room. The stage is also designed to accomodate the bass bins underneath in order for bass to travel along the floor and not interfere with the mid and top. Afterwards the bar will appear much larger, but the overall look and feel with be the same, although we may struggle to replicate the smell and mould of the original toilets. Hopefully the sound will be an improvement. This system achieves HiFi quality sound at all levels, and is able to deliver incredible sound at very low levels so we'll pipe the jukebox through this instead of the current shite speakers. That's the full story. Flash

jukebox Hi Tam, The current jukebox only holds 100 CDs, we try and rotate at least 10% of them each month. We're always looking for input about what to buy. We have so little free time that we hardly ever get to listen to the radio oir view a music channel. We really rely on our customers to recommend stuff. The way the jukebox works is that we only take advice on what to add NOT what to remove heh heh. For the bulk of the selection we aim for a roughly equal spread over the last 30 years of music. There are some special weightings though and the latest stuff gets a few extra slots. We also like to feature local bands material, and would like to surrender around 10% of the jukebox to that cause. In order to feature as much local band material as possible it would be good if bands agreed to issue the bar with special CDs combining perhaps the material from 2-3 bands on a single disc. In other words if 2 bands have albums that run to 30 and 40 mins respectively then they might decide to issue us them both on a single disc. We will not go ahead and combine stuff ourselves. Now that the rock resurgance has begun to take hold, several other bars have started to include a lot of 'RAWK! Classics' on their jukeboxes. This has enabled The Moorings Bar jukebox to move further to the fringes. We have slowly replaced a lot of overplayed material with less exposed stuff. Personally I love Paranoid and Doctor Doctor, but would prefer to go ten years without hearing them again. There are other places, where people that haven't heard those songs a million times, can visit for their fix. We're also starting to concentrate on specific albums rather than greatest hits compilations. Often the songs that people most identify with are the ones hardly anyone mentions. Finally our policy for removal is that the more frequently something gets played the sooner it comes off. I mean there are only so many times a day I can stand listening to 'Hey Stoopid' and 15 has crossed that threshhold. Get back to me with some recommendations, preferably stuff that I haven't heard. The best way is to burn me a trial CD (gasp) and if I like it then I'll go out and buy the originals to put in the machine. My taste is very broad, pretty much everything from ABBA through Zappa, with a little bias towards punk. See Ya Flash

Gee Thanks Bonesaw Bazz, please come along to our relaunch once the buiilders have finished. I'll buy you a free 'woosh' for the plug Cheers! Heather I notice from your Bio that you are listening to Ben Harper. Several years ago I accidentally ate some mushrooms that turned out to be hallucinogenic (wonder how that happened). Anyhow Ben Harper was on the Jools Holland show that night on TV, and played 'Please Bleed' live. It was fantastic. I went straight out the next day and bought the album. Might put it in the Jukebox soon. One thing I'd like to point out is that The Moorings is a bar and not a club, so it's not fair to compare us. I don't get to Moshulu much because I'm old and too tired to go, but now the bar is closed for a few weeks I intend to spend some time there. In my opinion Moshulu is much better than the Palace (or the Ritzy as I knew it). I feel this way because I had to suffer through the latter half of the 90s - the dark ages when the Palace routinely kicked us out then begged us back when they needed the money. Even during the early 90s they only ran alternative nights on Mondays and Thursdays, catering to neds the rest of the time. On Fridays I went to the Sloe Club at RGIT Union, and Saturdays and Tuesdays Caesers Palace. The difference here is that unlike the Palace, Moshulu actually means it! My understanding is that the people that ran the alternative nights at the Palace also have they same involvement in Moshulu (please correct me if I'm wrong), so all that was good about the Palace is present in Moshulu. Aberdeen has been crying out for an alternative venue the size of Moshulu for a long time. Especially one that admits us at weekends. Right now we're all spoiled for choice. I manage to get to Drakes from time to time (easy since it's only 15yards away) and love it there. Drakes has worked wonders is helping to create a thriving music scene in Aberdeen as opposed to the covers bands that we've had to endure for the last 15 years... and they done that because they believe in it. Needless to say I'll also be spending a fair bit of time in Drakes over the coming weeks. From the Moorings perspective, the creation of Drakes then Moshulu have been a massive boost for us. One alternative venue does not constitute a scene! The Moorings actually suffered after The Satelite Bar shut... strange because on paper that was it's main competitor. People like choice, choice is attractive and helps build the sort of movement we have now. There really is no place I'd rather be right now than Aberdeen. It's only a matter of time before something explodes several of our young bands into the big time. Other places aren't so fortunate. See you all in Drakes/Moshulu over the course of the next few weeks Flash

Just a thought but shouldn't your 21 year old mate sample The Moorings Bar before he gets much older. He's already lost 7 years in theory and the last 18 months have been particularily worth experiencing. Kill 2 birds with 1 stone.

Should have known when it say's you're dating a GIANT I should have twigged.

layla - next time your in, identify yourself to me and I'll buy you a consolation drink off the list. I like that our customers already frequent the competition, due to our earlier closing time, but still come back to us the next day. My theory is that it's because the old place is so haunted, the atmosphere (something I have little to do with and don't mess around with) has something special about it. I guarantee that part will never change. Back in my early drinking days there were 2 main rock bars in town, The Satelite Bar (upstairs of Radars, now Siberia I think) and The Moorings Bar. Like most of my age group I was inducted into the scene through The Satelite Bar, spent all my college time there. Then one night, when I was 19, we were going to a party and everybody had to meet up in The Moorings Bar. I'd never heard of the place (some things haven't changed). We entered as the place was in full swing - you'll know what I mean. It just blew me away - this was the real deal. The next week I returned there my new girlfriend, to impress her that I knew this cool joint. It worked. I've been hooked ever since. Having said that, not everyone gets it first time out... The place is more famous outside Aberdeen, especially abroad. We get postcards and emails from all over the world. People that were only in town a week still email us 2 years later. Occasionally a long lost traveller makes an appearance and it's hugs all round. How can a place with toilets that bad make such a lasting an impression (on anything other than the nostrals)? We plan to be open in the evenings during the latter stages, so wont be closed for long. Flash Flash

I find that openness works best. One of the reasons I started this thread was to get people thinking about the economics of the situation. I've seen me take a GP or 350 and the band ask for 300 despite the fact that the turnout was poor. In another instance I ran a regular event at a substantial loss for the best part of a year, while still paying the musicians a reasonable ammount. The first night a decent crowd turned up one of them asked for a pay rise... How I laughed. I also get annoyed when I hear of a venue charging a promoter for hosting an event (or expecting a cut of the tickets), even though the venue is benefiting from sales, and having their venue promoted without lifting a finger. These undertakings are best done as a team with everybody pulling their weight and sharing the spoils or the losses to some extent.

agreed nullmouse - yeah promoters are a different case, and some of them are as skint as the bands, and do this more for love than money. Promoters get ripped of as much as bands do. I can't really give an indication of what to expect there. Some promoters might find my guidelines more helpful than the bands do. BTW I'm not saying that every venue is greedy and loaded with money... most private venues aren't. Chains are a different kettle of fish, although even they occasionally hit on hard times. Bands have to fork out for their instruments, plus spare parts, plus lessons, they have to practice and this often costs money, then there is the time they spend setting up for the gig. Bottom line is that it costs a lot of money to be a musician. The punters spend money to see bands, whether it's through increased beer sales, tickets sales, or door charges. I'd like to see more of this make it's way back to the bands. Bands need to start insisting on FAIR payment. Flash

OK sorted. Dan is now aware of the stage time, but it's a secret

Speaking to various bands that have played at my venue - especially the younger bands - I've noticed that there is a fair variation on payment for gigs. Here's some guidelines for dealing with venues. At the risk of a kneecapping I hope you find them useful. First off let's look at the economics of the deal: 1) Learn to count heads. Most people will finger a crowd as more than twice as large as it really is. 2) Bars do not count VAT as part of their taking because it isn't. 3) 50 people = approx 200 +VAT per hour through the bar. Of course this depends on what the bar charges for a drink. 4) Cost price. Drink costs money. The bigger the venue, or chain the less they pay for the drink. The variation is enormous and the little venues pay through the nose effectively subsidising the bigger ones. It's a sick world. Lager will vary between 0.40 and 1.10 per pint depending on the size of the venue/chain. To calculate the profit you need to divide the price of a pint by 117.5 then multiply it by 100 and subtract the cost figure. Expect Drakes etc to be charged something approaching the higher rate and Wetherspoons something approaching the lower rate. 5) Personnel costs. Most barstaff are paid the minimum wage, but there are employment costs of around 17% on top of that figure. There is also the management to pay for. Some bars pay more, we for instance pay up to 7.50 per hour but that's because I'm don't believe in paying people shit wages for good work. 6) Building costs. Most private bars will be subject to loans and mortgages. So translating this into an easy formula: Assume a gross profit of ~ 1 per pint. Assume a charge of 2.00 per pint net of VAT. Assume 200 net per hour from 50 people (obviously this isn't the case with under 18s drinking a can of coke for 4 hours), the the bar will make a gross profit of 100 per hour from a crowd of 50 people. Assume 4 staff at a total cost of 20 per hour, then the proft drops to 80 per hour. Deduct 10 to cover all other costs. This leaves 70. Divide that by something less than 2 to get what the band should be paid per hour. So a four piece band play in front of 100 people for 2 hours, with a break, and some lag prior to going on and coming off. This means we count 3 hours as total gig time. So 100 people for 3 hours, then you should charge somewhere in the region of 200. Taa daa! But hang on... some venues charge admission. Whoa! That's free money. Under those circumstances you should look to claim pretty much all of the admission fee, but stop there and ignore the beer sales. With this in mind we typically pay bands 20-25 per band member per hour... but take into account my policy of paying people what they deserve as opposed to as little as possible. There are other variable that may affect this. Say for instance a band agrees to play a particular venue for free, or for beer. Venues always have a reason why they can't afford to pay and take it from me that's always bullshit. The problem is that the venue has then engineered a competitive advantage. Under those circumstances I too would expect a free gig. This in turn has a knock on effect on other bands. See where we're headed? Then there's support slots. Bottom line is that everyone deserves to be paid something, and free beer doesn't really cut it. Remember some of those fans out there have come to see you as opposed to the lead act, and paid through the nose for a ticket in order to support you. Don't be scared to charge. So the moral of the story is: A) Charge. B) Charge what the venue can afford to pay based on crowd and how cheaply they get their beer, and whether they are charging at the door. C) Never ever ever play for less than you deserve. D) Never charge more than the venue can afford. The venue deserves to make a profit. E) Never believe the venue when it tells you it can't afford to pay you anything blah, blah, blah. Even when we have lost money I have paid the bands. Be prepared to play a short set for free just once, the very first time, in order to get a gig - but expect to be paid should the venue do well out of it. Now for the rider. Go for getting your drinks at cost price for the duration of the evening. So expect to pay around 1 per pint. Hope this helps. Guess I'll be wearing a stab vest for the rest of this year... Flash

PAs Best plan is to only play venues that have house PA. If they don't then you probably shouldn't play there... If they try and charge you for it tell them where to get off! Alternatively we're about to sell our house PA due to impending upgrade. This is a big system at 2.5KW but reasonably portable, and can comfortably deal with crowds of 100+. Depending on what parts we choose to sell we'll be looking upwards of 3000 but this is serious kit, well above anything you'll see in Bruce Millers. For something lower spec you could also try R&B. Flash

Guys, I have confirmed that the line up for your gig at The Moorings Bar on Sat 20th December will be: Inept 303 Risactonia 7 Stone Under 7 Stone under have yet to confirm. Also we will be test driving the planned 20KW Funktion-One / MC2 rig for the first time, so these 4 bands are to be among the first to use it. This rig will produce HiFi quality sound at PA dynamics. In order to maximise quality we will run it at half power, and bear in mind it is high impedance. The volume is likely to be similar to that of a 5KW rig (more than enough at The Moorings Bar), but the quality will surpass anything you have experienced to date, even the Lemon Tree. We're also going to use the higher quality mics, and put individual gates on the toms and kick drum, so everything will sound fat and tight. Rass - heh heh, are you sure you want to go see Metalica?? Look what you're missing out on )

Black Atom / Risactonia / Inept303 / 7 Stone Under Sat 20th Dec @ The Moorings Bar Black Atom Risactonia Inept303 7 Stone Under <--- tbc I refuse to disclose the exact running order... @ The Moorings Bar Saturday 20th December 2003 8pm till 1am Admission Free People aged 14 yrs and older may attend. All have confirmed apart from 7 Stone Under Also we are test driving our planned 20KW (that's T W E N T Y K I L O W A T T) PA system for the first time. Don't worry we won't be using all the power, but the quality of sound should be comparable to a REALLY expensive HiFi. This is also one of the last chances to see the bar in it's present form before we enlarge it and raise the stage. So if you want to be able to say "I remember what The Moorings Bar looked like before..." in 10 years time, then better take this opportunity to visit us. I envisage a very busy night a recommend getting there early if you want a good seat. At least there won't be any problem hearing the bands this time. Heh heh. This is out last big gig before the modifcations, afterwards we should be able to accomodate 250 people. There will be a permanent stage and a much larger dance floor. Seating capacity will also rise, but the toilets will be smaller and much nicer. The stage will be better positioned and wider. As for the sound system, come down and judge for yourself. To put it into perspective this is arguably a better rig than the Lemon Tree boasts in a more intimate venue. Provided Saturday goes welll then the rig will be permanently installed by March 2004. Anyone interested in purchasing the existing 2.5KW rig please get in touch. I'm really looking forward to this gig after the last gigs involving these bands went so well received.

In fact, to elaborate further... THEY DON'T NEED A REASON! Neither do bar staff when they refuse to serve someone, or managers when they ask someone to leave. In fact, in this day and age it is dangerous to give a reason in case it results in a lawsuit.

You are: A) Not taking part in the spirit of the quiz - so switch to PM. B) Getting very warm. But no it was recorded prior to Nielsen.

nope Twas the nightmare that is Mariah Carey not Whitney. Neilsen was also a cover. Heart did one of the better covers. Even our own Snakebite covered it for their tape. But fa wrote it and recorded the original. Another hint - the musical style of the original is very different to Nielsen.