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Lauren Mayberry (CHVRCHES) blogs about online misogyny...


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http://www.theguardian.com/music/musicblog/2013/sep/30/chvrches-lauren-mayberry-online-misogyny

 

 

 

 

 

So...it's clearly a problem. Does anyone have real world experience of this in the music industry, playing gigs locally or otherwise?

 

Is this only a problem that women experience as a result of a public online presence or do you think it is an issue for men too?

 

I think it's a massive problem when it becomes sexually aggressive. On the flipside I'm sure it's not just limited to women either as I'd expect some of the stuff that lands in One Direction and Justin Bieber's inbox's has a fairly unsavoury tone as well.

 

I've actually heard casual shouts of "get yer tits out" aimed at female band members at gigs, not in recent years though.

 

It's certainly not something that any person, regardless of gender, should be subjected to in my opinion. I do think the perceived anonymity of the internet lends itself to more aggressive misogyny.

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As an aside, I don't think you can really compare aggressive sexual advances aimed at men as opposed to women.

 

Why not? Surely that implies that it's ok to be sexually aggressive towards men regardless of whether the attention is warranted or not? Kinda reeks a little of gender inequality. Surely it's not ok to be sexually aggressive towards someone regardless of gender. What happens if the sexual aggression is from one man to another, does that make it more aggressive?

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I think the problem extends way beyond just sexism and sexually aggressive comments. The internet has become a platform for very threatening behaviour within just about all social networks. It's unbelievable the amount of racism and threats of violence/death you can come across on Twitter over innocuous and mundane subjects, and there are no consequences. Because there are no consequences, it's so easy for cowards to make such obscene comments to another person. The type of stuff 99% of these people wouldn't say to another person in real life. It's always happened on the internet, but since the explosion of 'micro-blogging' like Twitter, and the direction which Facebook has veered into, it's certainly much more noticeable than it ever has been.

 

It sounds ridiculous to suggest there should be some form of 'internet police', but if you're threatening to go to someone's house and rape them, kill them, hurt their family etc, then someone needs to be held accountable. You couldn't say that to someone without anonymity. It could be deemed as a criminal offence, but it's all fair game on the internet, seemingly.

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I agree with Jerk. Misogyny, sexism, racism or whatever else isn't new or in any way more prevalent nowadays, the problem is more that it's getting harder and harder to avoid. People have the ability to make their voices heard/seen no matter how horrid they are. Before twitbook you rarely came into contact with the toxic beliefs or dodgy morals of the type of person who would send a private message to a female band member saying he wants to fuck her in the arse. These people have always existed, now they just have new, easier ways of creeping people out.

 

I reckon there will be an internet revolution soon that will go after this culture. New ways of filtering out the tripe and drowning out noise, I look forward to that.

 

On the sexism thing, I have a theory that there are two types of dudes in the world: those who would do literally anything to get their hole and those who wouldn't. In the extreme, type A is the dude who will call a girl a hundred times after getting her number and call her even more when he realizes she's not picking up, type B would take 3 hours drafting a text to the girl and be a bit upset if she didn't text back but not resort to craziness just because he's gotten rejected. Type A, whilst a minority, still makes up a large proportion of the population. I've even had friends in the past who have shown glimpses of creepiness - I'm not sure I've known anyone I think would resort to sending dick pics to band members right enough - but the lengths to which some guys go to get their hole never surprises me. It's pretty sad.

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Why not? Surely that implies that it's ok to be sexually aggressive towards men regardless of whether the attention is warranted or not? Kinda reeks a little of gender inequality. Surely it's not ok to be sexually aggressive towards someone regardless of gender. What happens if the sexual aggression is from one man to another, does that make it more aggressive?

 

I don't mean to imply that such behaviour is ok.  Just that I don't think it's such a regular problem for men to be seen as just a thing that you can fuck.

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this is kinda like Jared Leto complaining about being treated as a sex object. Not that he has, I just despise Leto. I'd love to contribute to this, but it sounds like whining. And she wrote it for the Guardian. A double Null. poor quine. She should woman up.

 

Bet ya PJ Harvey gets much worse, and she's actually talented.

Edited by maud 'dib
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I don't mean to imply that such behaviour is ok.  Just that I don't think it's such a regular problem for men to be seen as just a thing that you can fuck.

 

I completely disagree. Women are much more sexually aggressive now than they ever have been. And Gay men are just as likely to be sexually aggressive towards men as straight men are towards women in some instances.

Edited by Alkaline
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this is kinda like Jared Leto complaining about being treated as a sex object. Not that he has, I just despise Leto. I'd love to contribute to this, but it sounds like whining. And she wrote it for the Guardian. A double Null. poor quine. She should woman up.

 

Bet ya PJ Harvey gets much worse, and she's actually talented.

 

 

Yes she should just be silent and not care about multiple rape threats. It's appalling that you would wave what she has to say away because you don't like paper it was printed nor like her music. 

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I think it's a massive problem when it becomes sexually aggressive. On the flipside I'm sure it's not just limited to women either as I'd expect some of the stuff that lands in One Direction and Justin Bieber's inbox's has a fairly unsavoury tone as well.

 

I've actually heard casual shouts of "get yer tits out" aimed at female band members at gigs, not in recent years though.

 

It's certainly not something that any person, regardless of gender, should be subjected to in my opinion. I do think the perceived anonymity of the internet lends itself to more aggressive misogyny.

I think that "a fairly unsavoury tone" is somewhat understating some of the comments.

 

For people who haven't read the article, some of the messages that Lauren Mayberry included:

 

"This isn't rape culture. You'll know rape culture when I'm raping you, bitch"

 

"I have your address and I will come round to your house and give u anal and you will love it you twat lol"

 

"Act like a slut, getting treated like a sluy"

 

I totally agree with Joe on how a veil of a computer screen seems to excuse some grotesque behaviour. I don't really want to get into the objectification of women within mainstream society on Aberdeen-Music, but I think it's quite ridiculous to suggest that men get it anywhere near as bad as women do.

Edited by Jan
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The internet removed the need for weirdos to send boxes of bizarre shit to folk in bands that would get intercepted by their minions once they reached a certain point. If they are going to make a stance on personally answering messages on FB then they either need to get thicker skinned and ignore the drivel or let someone filter then answer the genuine fan contact. While its quite right to say that it shouldnt happen there are always going to be the element who will never believe they are doing anything wrong and these are probably now outnumbered by those who are now aware she gets pissed off by it and will just do it to annoy her.

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Quite why the applicable laws aren't being applied is beyond me (Malicious Communications Act 1988 in England/Wales perhaps, and maybe Criminal Justice and Licensing (Scotland) Act 2010 under Threatening or abusive behaviour?), apart from the sheer scale of the problem.  It is intoxicating though, and I must confess that I have at times been snippier or more sarcastic than I might be in real life during online discussions, but these quoted comments are way beyond any line of acceptability in any communication medium and they should just start throwing the book at some of these folk.  Not so hard when you're being sent down for a few months, are you?  Good luck getting a job when you're on the sex offenders register.  I bet the vast majority of these Internet rapin' and pillagin' types would be blubbing all the way to the jail in the G4S van.

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The internet removed the need for weirdos to send boxes of bizarre shit to folk in bands that would get intercepted by their minions once they reached a certain point. If they are going to make a stance on personally answering messages on FB then they either need to get thicker skinned and ignore the drivel or let someone filter then answer the genuine fan contact. While its quite right to say that it shouldnt happen there are always going to be the element who will never believe they are doing anything wrong and these are probably now outnumbered by those who are now aware she gets pissed off by it and will just do it to annoy her.

I'd disagree with just about everything you said. The little effort required to post messages and comments on the internet mean there's a much higher volume of abuse  getting sent than anyone writing down and posting in the mail in the past.

That bit in bold is way off the mark too, the onus should be on whoever is receiving the abuse to avoid it or shut up about it? That's completely backwards. The people sending it are the problem. I think it's good that she brought the issue up, and not just accept that it's "always going to happen" and let it be the status quo for how women should be treated in the music industry.

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Yes she should just be silent and not care about multiple rape threats. It's appalling that you would wave what she has to say away because you don't like paper it was printed nor like her music. 

Appalling is a very strong word. This IS the internet, indeed. Rape and sexual assault are very bad. I can't argue that. But I suppose what I meant was this- folk that play in bands open all sorts of avenues of communication- f/book, e-mail etc. It's about tone- I'm just going out on a limb here- but, heaven forbid if I was Dave Grohl I would get a lot of spam- some good, some bad, and a bit of it a wee bit prison rapey. I would suck it up. it's just funny. 

ramping shit up and sticking an agenda on it for a lefty paper just comes across as desperate to me.

this is wound culture, for attention- regardless of gender. 

it's lazy. 

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That's a bizarre way of thinking to me. One person makes comments threatening rape to another and you seem to think the problem lies with the one receiving the threats. Maybe she's not the only person to receive messages like this but I really can't see why she should just accept it and stay quiet. I think it's a good thing that the extent of online abuse is made clear to people who might not be aware of it. 

 

It's incredible this article could even lead to any debate.

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I'd disagree with just about everything you said. The little effort required to post messages and comments on the internet mean there's a much higher volume of abuse  getting sent than anyone writing down and posting in the mail in the past.

That bit in bold is way off the mark too, the onus should be on whoever is receiving the abuse to avoid it or shut up about it? That's completely backwards. The people sending it are the problem. I think it's good that she brought the issue up, and not just accept that it's "always going to happen" and let it be the status quo for how women should be treated in the music industry.

No, you are taking everything too literally, what I am saying is that at present I feel it is better to ignore a bunch of idiots rather than feed their kicks. It may rankle to keep schtum but to react is to help their game. As was mentioned above, hopefully there will be real measures put in place to stem the tide. Its not just confined to women in the music industry, I have seen some pretty hateful shit flying about.

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Appalling is a very strong word. This IS the internet, indeed. Rape and sexual assault are very bad. I can't argue that. But I suppose what I meant was this- folk that play in bands open all sorts of avenues of communication- f/book, e-mail etc. It's about tone- I'm just going out on a limb here- but, heaven forbid if I was Dave Grohl I would get a lot of spam- some good, some bad, and a bit of it a wee bit prison rapey. I would suck it up. it's just funny. 

ramping shit up and sticking an agenda on it for a lefty paper just comes across as desperate to me.

this is wound culture, for attention- regardless of gender. 

it's lazy. 

 

The Internet is NOT a special case, as far as the law is concerned it's no different to sending an abusive letter, making an obscene phone call or telling someone to their face that they deserve to be raped.  The sooner the "it's just the internet, get over it" knuckleheads figure that out, the better for everyone.

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The Internet is NOT a special case, as far as the law is concerned it's no different to sending an abusive letter, making an obscene phone call or telling someone to their face that they deserve to be raped.  The sooner the "it's just the internet, get over it" knuckleheads figure that out, the better for everyone.

Don't be silly. it is a grey area. it's constantly changing though. depending on legislation. my point is that the more you are in the public eye the more you are going to encounter the dark side of human nature- most bands and solo- artists suck it up. unless you are an attention grabbing lefty fuck-tard. i apologise, I find this whole thing difficult. But i think most of you guys are wrong.

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Don't be silly. it is a grey area. it's constantly changing though. depending on legislation. my point is that the more you are in the public eye the more you are going to encounter the dark side of human nature- most bands and solo- artists suck it up. unless you are an attention grabbing lefty fuck-tard. i apologise, I find this whole thing difficult. But i think most of you guys are wrong.

 

Right.  I'm being silly.

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Don't be silly. it is a grey area. it's constantly changing though. depending on legislation. my point is that the more you are in the public eye the more you are going to encounter the dark side of human nature- most bands and solo- artists suck it up. unless you are an attention grabbing lefty fuck-tard. i apologise, I find this whole thing difficult. But i think most of you guys are wrong.

 

I don't think you're entirely arguing a contradictory point. To a certain extent I agree that whilst pretty disgusting, the rapey comments and such are a just an unfortunate by-product of the society we live in and this person isn't the first and won't be the last to deal with it. I didn't need an article in the Guardian to tell me this problem exists - I'm not surprised that it does either. As you say she's in no way unique in her situation - anyone in the public eye is pretty much fair game and there are countless similar stories out there.

 

That said, the fact it appears in the Guardian and not whatever publication you prefer doesn't make it any less disheartening and worrysome. I'm pretty sure you could swap out Lauren Mayberry for anyone else in the world and you'd still hold the same view because of the 'lefty fucktard' thing.

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Don't be silly. it is a grey area. it's constantly changing though. depending on legislation. my point is that the more you are in the public eye the more you are going to encounter the dark side of human nature- most bands and solo- artists suck it up. unless you are an attention grabbing lefty fuck-tard. i apologise, I find this whole thing difficult. But i think most of you guys are wrong.

 

It's not fucking hard.  Primary school teachers, shop assistants and politicians are also jobs in the public eye.  Think it would be cool if any of the women that do those jobs regularly received letters from parents/customers/constituents claiming that they would rape them?

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ramping shit up and sticking an agenda on it for a lefty paper just comes across as desperate to me.

this is wound culture, for attention- regardless of gender. 

it's lazy. 

 

I can't believe she has the audacity to not want to receive rape-threats. I mean, what a disgusting fucking left-wing agenda for Lauren Mayberry to have. How dare she highlight the sort of behaviour that leads to the horrific victim-blaming, sexual assault and rape culture that we currently live in. She should just shut the hell up and let the people claiming they're going to anally rape her because they know where she lives win. What a fucking attention seeker. Women, eh? Who does she think she is? I bet she voted Lib Dem too.

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I think that "a fairly unsavoury tone" is somewhat understating some of the comments.

 

 

I'm not devaluing the comments so please don't suggest I am.

 

Part of the problem here is people (men) jumping in to defend womens rights. If we're aiming to promote gender equality those men will have to concede that women are quite capable of looking after themselves and that this type of ridiculous need to wade in and act all "i'm better than you because i'm a man and I understand how women feel" is actually part of the problem. Stop seeing it as just a womens thing and start seeing it as part of the actual problem which is that this can (and does) happen to both men and women and that gender isn't the problem (it's hypersexuality in general).

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