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[Cloud]

Originally Posted by Pierre Von Mondragon

So then y'all, Europe; in or oot?

In. Being out would be a nightmare - just to give one example, the queue to enter Poland at the main Ukranian border crossing can be around 45 minutes on a bad day for EU citizens (when everyone is being checked for booze/cigarettes). For some Ukranians that we spoke to - they had been waiting for almost 6 hours. I don't want this.

The people who claim EEA/EFTA membership is an option haven't looked at the reality of the situation - Norway, Iceland and Lichtenstein pay a fair amount of cash (Norway is something like a billion Euro a year, if I remeber rightly) for EEA privileges, and even Switzerland which pays far less is still bound into a considerable chunk of EU law. In fact, Switzerland was told to either accept Schengen and EU labour mobility laws or face losing all their trade agreements.

Norway and Iceland are also is in the situation where the EU tells them how Schengen is going to work and how it's going to be done and they have no say in the matter - and this is just one aspect among thousands in the EEA.

There's also no guarantee that the EU will be favourable in the event of British withdrawal - and it would almost certainly provoke some sort of backlash from an EU desperate to avoid anyone else considering such a step. I don't know why many people seem to think that the benefits will be kept - does anyone really believe that the UK wouldn't have severe border controls placed upon them in Europe, for instance? I can very easily imagine the French being complete bastards in Dover for instance and checking everyone very slowly, just to ram home the point.

Having said this, there's no excuse for not having a referendum - if it means the people take the UK out of the EU, then they democratically voted so.

Let's not forget that the ease of movement throughout the EU would be drastically curtailed as a non-EU citizen - the hassle that Americans have in obtaining legal residency in the EU should be enough warning that Britain doesn't want to go down that road.

Having said all this - Blair was a fucking idiot for giving up even part of the rebate without a deal on comprehensive reform of the CAP.

[Le Stu]

We pay £7 billion a year in subsidies to the EU so withdrawing would obviously save us a considerable amount of cash. Whether or not we have the political clout to opt out of EU laws or combat trade tarrifs remains to be seen.

Of course, it depends on how important European trade will be to us in the future and whether we really want to be in a restrictive trade agreement with the EU at all when Asia is going to be where the action is.

[Neil]

Originally Posted by Lester Burnham

Labour are the political embodiment of everything that's wrong with the UK. They virtually encourage debt and it was Brown himself that engineered our financial downfall. The "throw money" at everything attitude is a solution to nothing. Since Labour came into power there's been a 20% increase in public sector jobs and a 3% increase in productivity. The maths is wrong and Brown won't do anything about it. The problem with Labour is that they're too concerned about popularity with the masses rather than the action that needs to be taken… however brutal it may be.

I think it's worth bearing in mind that the recession just now would have happened regardless of what political party was in power during the lead up to it. To blame Brown for it all is somewhat short-sighted as it is a global problem of which the UK is only a contributor.

Remember the tipping point was Lehman Brothers (a US based financial institution) going bankrupt, but because of the global and tangled nature of financial institutions across the world it affected many countries. Countries like the UK were hit particularly hard as our financial services industry is responsible for large part of this country’s output. London is (or was?) the financial capital of Europe after all.

It's ultimately a lack a proper oversight and control of financial institutions that has been going on for decades and across the world (the US is in just as much of a mess as us, if not more so - and they had a Republican government in power during the lead up). It’s the old boom and bust cycle that despite what Mr. Brown might say, can never really be avoided in a global free market economy.

Has what Labour has done before and after the event made things any better or worse? I honestly don't know. I'm still not comfortable with the on-going quantitative easing program and would have preferred to just let the banks go bust then be bailed out. But then that could have destroyed the confidence in our whole banking system.

All I know is that so far I've heard nothing convincing from any party about how they plan to dig us out of this hole. So at this moment in time, no-one is getting my vote. I'm certainly not going to vote for the sake of change.

[KimyReizeger]

Originally Posted by Alkaline

Labour all the way for me. Lib Dems are a wasted vote and .

In the surrounding constituencies, currently, or at the last general election:

Aberdeen South: lib dems came second by a slim margin.
Aberdeen North: lib dems came second
Gordon: Malcolm Bruce reigning lib dem MP
West Aberdeenshire and Kincardine: Robert Smith reigning lib dem MP
Banff and Buchan: conservative

So, pretty strong liberal presence up here.

[daveofficer]

Originally Posted by Lester Burnham

It was shit because it had to be and it'll be shit again. It's the circle of the country over spending and getting in the shit (labour) and the conservatives being the 'nasty' party that does the brutal work that gets the country back on track. It's the political circle that we'll be stuck in forever more.

Personally, I'm an SNP fan but I'll be voting Tory for sure in the next election. I don't think I could ever bring myself to vote Labour.

Labour are the political embodiment of everything that's wrong with the UK. They virtually encourage debt and it was Brown himself that engineered our financial downfall. The "throw money" at everything attitude is a solution to nothing. Since Labour came into power there's been a 20% increase in public sector jobs and a 3% increase in productivity. The maths is wrong and Brown won't do anything about it. The problem with Labour is that they're too concerned about popularity with the masses rather than the action that needs to be taken… however brutal it may be.

why not vote snp then? seems silly not to vote for the party you prefer. certainly as snp have a real chance of winning seats round here and being in a strong position after the general election.

[Le Stu]

Personally, I'm either going to not vote or throw an ideological vote at the GE. Tactical voting for the same difference just seems full of fail.

[Lester Burnham]

Originally Posted by daveofficer

why not vote snp then? seems silly not to vote for the party you prefer. certainly as snp have a real chance of winning seats round here and being in a strong position after the general election.

As sad as it sounds, I'm seriously considering the tactical vote. I'll see how I feel nearer the time. The conservatives views on Europe do make me feel somewhat ill, so I may come through for the SNP on the day.

[Lester Burnham]

Originally Posted by Neil

Has what Labour has done before and after the event made things any better or worse? I honestly don't know. I'm still not comfortable with the on-going quantitative easing program and would have preferred to just let the banks go bust then be bailed out. But then that could have destroyed the confidence in our whole banking system.

All I know is that so far I've heard nothing convincing from any party about how they plan to dig us out of this hole. So at this moment in time, no-one is getting my vote. I'm certainly not going to vote for the sake of change.

It's what they've not done since that's the real issue (combined with being massively irresponsible beforehand). The VAT cut was a joke, then hiking up fuel duty again and giving larger businesses next to no relief to allow them to grow/survive.

[jester1470]

Originally Posted by Frosty Jack

I know it's early in the day, but I must be pissed, because I could swear Dave just described himself as a 'libertarian'...

I think it was librarian he meant...