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[Carrots Gladstone]

Originally Posted by Alkaline

I think we can go all the way back to Callaghan for that. He's not really made any more "catastrophic" errors than anyone else and i think he's made a valiant attempt at stabilising the economy and things are slowly (very slowly) leveling out.

I firmly believe that if we went Conservative we'd just be trading like for like and the Conservatives don't seem to have much of a long term plan for anything.

While Brown might be a grumpy sod i have utter faith in him, as i did in Tony Blair.

Dave, you are one of a few Tories i actually know who seem to have forgotten how shite it was living in the UK during the Thatcher and Major years.

I think Phil should lead the Labour Party and Dave the Conservatives. And all debates should be held on Aberdeen Music.

I'm finding myself agreeing with you both, which is unfortunate as I can't vote for both parties... One of the reasons I'm swaying towards Gordon Brown is that a bit of stability and continuity in the country at a time like this should be a good thing. I think if Cameron came in next year, he'd be trying to implement new policies etc which is probably slightly inappropriate when we need to steady the ship first. Perhaps a few years of Brown, then Cameron in the Election in 2014/15, but I guess by that time our country will look altogether different.

And perhaps a change in Government with their new policies etc will actually help to get us out of the mess we have found ourselves in.

Fuck knows.

[Le Stu]

Originally Posted by Dave

Not necessarily a bad thing. Thatcher, Joseph and Friedman were hardly fiscal conservatives, were they? They took radical, unheard of steps to jolt the economy back into life in the 80's, much against the advice of older heads in their part who couldn't bear to part with their Keynesianism and their "managed decline". Cameron will do the same, I fancy, and find modern solutions for modern problems.

Thatcher was great when she had Hayek in her handbag. Those are the kind of radical policies that we need implemented. Unfortunately, it means taking a massive hit on public sector jobs and, subsequently, our retail and service sectors to rebalance the economy with high unemployment as a result. This is going to be very painful and extremely unpopular. I just hope Cameron and Osborne have the eggs to do it or we're going to have a problem. We cannot pay our debt back to foreign creditors and you can only push that so far before disaster occurs.

[Frosty Jack]

Originally Posted by Le Stu

My major confusion, with regard to the attitudes of the British electorate, is why the voters believe Gordon Brown is somehow trustworthy or perceived as the steady hand to sail us through stormy waters (usual horrible media metaphor.) The guy has delivered unto us a fantasy economy where we borrow, spend and inflate and pay for nothing with production or savings. Perhaps it's unfair to criticise him solely for this as it's been an economic system that has been propagated since the days of Thatcher.

That's the problem right there. The Conservative Government started the problem and Labour just ran with it, the best example being their obsession with PFI. But as Alkaline says it could possibly be said to go further back than that - I really kind of doubt there is an honest way to run an economy nowadays, it's all smoke and mirrors by definition. We're fucked no matter who's in charge. And that just makes me fear a return to the Tories even more. Leaving aside the economy, at least Labour brought back a feeling of 'society' again, which the Tories had purposefully killed off. Anyone old enough to be able to compare life pre and post 97 could tell the difference in how people treat each other. The 80s and 90s were great if you were already in a position to help yourself and you really didn't care about anyone else. Otherwise you were fucked. Forget it. Seriously, if you didn't live through that time, you can't imagine how depressing the whole 'fuck you, I'm OK' attitude was. Generally speaking Labour at least brought back some sort of sense of helping others. That still wins for me.

I know it's early in the day, but I must be pissed, because I could swear Dave just described himself as a 'libertarian'...

[Pierre Von Mondragon]

Peoples lives are infinitely more important than any debt, one thing forgotten in the 80s, the collateral damage to society hugely outweighs any economic benefit caused by reducing debt. We are still now paying the social price of the 80s, that was when the destruction was wreaked that has led to families with 3 to 4 generations who had never worked. Such deprivation was much less evident in the 60s and 70s. Better to be uncompetitive and humane, than chasing the elusive and frequently mythical trickle-down effect. A false boom is no boom at all.

Anyhoo aren't these banks etc meant to be paying that money back? Sorry, bad taste joke.

[Lester Burnham]

Originally Posted by Alkaline

I think we can go all the way back to Callaghan for that. He's not really made any more "catastrophic" errors than anyone else and i think he's made a valiant attempt at stabilising the economy and things are slowly (very slowly) leveling out.

I firmly believe that if we went Conservative we'd just be trading like for like and the Conservatives don't seem to have much of a long term plan for anything.

While Brown might be a grumpy sod i have utter faith in him, as i did in Tony Blair.

Dave, you are one of a few Tories i actually know who seem to have forgotten how shite it was living in the UK during the Thatcher and Major years.

It was shit because it had to be and it'll be shit again. It's the circle of the country over spending and getting in the shit (labour) and the conservatives being the 'nasty' party that does the brutal work that gets the country back on track. It's the political circle that we'll be stuck in forever more.

Personally, I'm an SNP fan but I'll be voting Tory for sure in the next election. I don't think I could ever bring myself to vote Labour.

Labour are the political embodiment of everything that's wrong with the UK. They virtually encourage debt and it was Brown himself that engineered our financial downfall. The "throw money" at everything attitude is a solution to nothing. Since Labour came into power there's been a 20% increase in public sector jobs and a 3% increase in productivity. The maths is wrong and Brown won't do anything about it. The problem with Labour is that they're too concerned about popularity with the masses rather than the action that needs to be taken… however brutal it may be.

[Le Stu]

Originally Posted by Pierre Von Mondragon

Peoples lives are infinitely more important than any debt, one thing forgotten in the 80s, the collateral damage to society hugely outweighs any economic benefit caused by reducing debt. We are still now paying the social price of the 80s, that was when the destruction was wreaked that has led to families with 3 to 4 generations who had never worked. Such deprivation was much less evident in the 60s and 70s. Better to be uncompetitive and humane, than chasing the elusive and frequently mythical trickle-down effect. A false boom is no boom at all.

Precisely why we should put an end to these debt driven booms and busts whereby one 'socially conscious' government installs the comfy rug under our feet, only to have the next 'bastardy conservative' government rip it from beneath our feet again.

[Le Stu]

Originally Posted by Frosty Jack

That's the problem right there. The Conservative Government started the problem and Labour just ran with it, the best example being their obsession with PFI. But as Alkaline says it could possibly be said to go further back than that - I really kind of doubt there is an honest way to run an economy nowadays, it's all smoke and mirrors by definition. We're fucked no matter who's in charge. And that just makes me fear a return to the Tories even more. Leaving aside the economy, at least Labour brought back a feeling of 'society' again, which the Tories had purposefully killed off. Anyone old enough to be able to compare life pre and post 97 could tell the difference in how people treat each other. The 80s and 90s were great if you were already in a position to help yourself and you really didn't care about anyone else. Otherwise you were fucked. Forget it. Seriously, if you didn't live through that time, you can't imagine how depressing the whole 'fuck you, I'm OK' attitude was. Generally speaking Labour at least brought back some sort of sense of helping others. That still wins for me.

I definitely agree that the unfortunate corporatism of the later Thatcher years was gleefully embraced by Labour. I would also agree with you concerning this notion of 'society' the government claims they contruct or deconstruct, but this is due to our unfortunate dependence upon them, something we can only really strive to escape through our individual lives in our communities. And I was a kid in the 80s so I had a blast but yes it was harsh for a lot of people and the problems still linger because our working class still have no industry. It's the same story from Glasgow to Detroit.

[Pierre Von Mondragon]

One thing I have to say is that Cameron has excelled at shifting the political ground; turning a crisis created by a lassaiz-faire deregulated banking sector run amok, into a moral judgement on a bloated state sector. His main danger lies in the many public sector workers that may agree with many of his ideas, as long as its not their job that is at stake. Well, it might be their job at stake, and so we have the possibility of an echo of '92, where hardly anyone in public would admit to voting for Labour, but in the privacy of the voting boothe calculate that it best serves their interests.

Anyway, er, bums.

[Le Stu]

Hardly free-market. We have a heavily (yet poorly) regulated fractional reserve banking system, backed by government guarantees, with interest rates set and credit solely issued by a government owned central bank.

[delboy]

Clarkson for PM sounds damn good to me. Or Paul O'Grady