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[Le Stu]

Originally Posted by Pierre Von Mondragon

So then y'all, Europe; in or oot?

Out. Join EFTA like Norway and Switzerland (suspiciously European countries), which is all the '75 referendum gave our government a mandate for anyway.

*I mean the common market rather than EFTA specifically, as we were in EFTA before we signed up to the EEC.

[kirkt]

The first past the post system makes it quite infuriating as a voter, especially in Scotland where the Conservatives have little support (compared to other parts of the UK at least) as it means our votes can do little to keep them out.

I have no respect for Cameron at all. I think he offers simple solutions to people who won't think of long-term consequences. Brown has had a rough time of it really but I think if anyone is going to lead the country of turmoil it will, although I do find Nick Clegg quite refreshing too..

[Le Stu]

My major confusion, with regard to the attitudes of the British electorate, is why the voters believe Gordon Brown is somehow trustworthy or perceived as the steady hand to sail us through stormy waters (usual horrible media metaphor.) The guy has delivered unto us a fantasy economy where we borrow, spend and inflate and pay for nothing with production or savings. Perhaps it's unfair to criticise him solely for this as it's been an economic system that has been propagated since the days of Thatcher. We have simply delayed the consequences of the de-industrialisation of this nation by the maturation date of our government bonds. However, since Gordon Brown didn't bite the bullet and do the unpopular belt-tightening back in '97, what makes you think he'll do it now? And do you really think we can go on like this?

The second piece of confusion is why people believe the conservative party wish to cut spending just because they're the 'nasty party' and it's because they like to do it. Again, the British public are being badly mislead by our Mickey Mouse media. You cannot call a ten-fold increase in annual budget deficits in a decade simply the can you can kick down the road for another ten years. We are now paying off an amount of interest on this debt which equalled the entire deficit a mere decade ago. This does not go well for us from here on in and the options are evaporating the longer we leave it.

[delboy]

I'll probably vote green even if I do drive a gas guzzling motor, their hearts are in the right place. Preferably would vote for the monster raving looney party if they have a candidate here!

Nick Griffin on Question Time should be a hoot, but not in a humorous way mind. I'm sure the racist bigot will be rightly gunned down in flames although doubt Jack Straw will give him too much grief , he always comes across as a bit of a pansy. I'm actually all for letting tossers like the BNP have their say on national telly, they'll be shown up for what they really are. And freedom of speech and all that.

[Dave]

I'm sorely out of practice with threads like these. I'll ease my way back in with a spot of light fisking (yes, yes, fnaar fnaar, quiet at the back etc.)

Originally Posted by Carrots Gladstone

About a month ago it seemed certain David Cameron would be PM next year, and I couldn't decide whether Gordon Brown was just in the wrong place at the wrong time, or whether he is actually a rubbish PM. I've a feeling he's going to turn it around come election time and be the man to turn the country around

Originally Posted by Carrots Gladstone

I've always thought that Gordon Brown should be the man to bring us out of the financial crisis, but his term so far has just gone from bad to worse. But things appear to be gradually looking up.

What, exactly, is looking up? Can you name one thing that has happened during Gordon Brown's tenure as PM that could possibly persuade the electorate that voting to give him another five years in office would be a good idea? As for turning it round, how on earth is he going to achieve that? Is he somehow going to be able to go into the next election without making issues such as the national debt and unemployment (both at record levels in real terms, both directly attributable to Brown's time in office) the main factors in the voter's mind?

Originally Posted by Alkaline

Gordon Brown has drawn a rather shitty hand

And who dealt that hand? Surely you can't absolve Brown from making some well-documented catastrophic errors during his time as Chancellor and PM? How can we trust him not to do the same, or worse, in the future. To carry on the card metaphor, he's a busted flush.

Originally Posted by Le Stu

Cameron has not proven himself to have any sort of conviction as a fiscal conservative.

Not necessarily a bad thing. Thatcher, Joseph and Friedman were hardly fiscal conservatives, were they? They took radical, unheard of steps to jolt the economy back into life in the 80's, much against the advice of older heads in their part who couldn't bear to part with their Keynesianism and their "managed decline". Cameron will do the same, I fancy, and find modern solutions for modern problems.

Originally Posted by Pierre Von Mondragon

I have been disenfranchised by the Increasingly Inexorable Social Authoritarianism of the Labour party

You and many, many others. Their sins are many, and pretty much every single act of social engineering they have participated in has just exaserbated the problems they set out to solve. It's (almost) enough to make one become a libertarian...

Originally Posted by Pierre Von Mondragon

So I'd say grit yer teeth, tighten yer belt, hell shoot some smack if you need to, hold your nose and vote for the leastWorst Party, probably the class traitor L....L....L..., make yer own choice, L....them.

The problem there is, that's what most of us did last time. Those of us with liberal consciences (both social and economic) couldn't stomach Michael Howard, and Tony Blair looked like he might finally grow a set and bring in some serious changes. It didn't happen, so we're going to grit our teeth for the other guys this time.

Originally Posted by kirkt

The first past the post system makes it quite infuriating as a voter, especially in Scotland where the Conservatives have little support

As I recall, the Conservatives got over half a million votes in Scotland at the last general election, and yet ended up with one MP. It works both ways. Would you rather have a system that gave us BNPand UKIP MPs, as well as a great many more Scottish Conservatives, and failed to provide a working majority in the House of Commons? FPTP isn't perfect, but it works.

Originally Posted by kirkt

Brown has had a rough time of it really but I think if anyone is going to lead the country of turmoil it will

Nothing to add other than this is my favourite typo for a while...

Just wanted to add another point here, which hasn't really been touched on so far; General Elections aren't only about the issues. They are, inevitably, a popularity contest between the party leaders, and the ones with baggage tend not to do well. David Cameron's a fresh slate, while Gordon Brown has lost the trust of large parts of the electorate with his dithering, obfuscation and downright lies over the pettiest of issues. This, more than any other factor, will decide the result next May.

[Carrots Gladstone]

Hmmm, Dave's got me back onto seriously considering voting Conservative against all my natural instincts...

My comment about things looking up. I meant looking up for Gordon Brown in that he seems to be clawing back some of the support that he lost.

Got to agree with you on the shitty hand comments too. I keep forgetting that he was in the thick of it for the 10 years prior to taking charge of the country. Whether it's all his doing or not, he has to have had a lot of influence on the current economic state of our country. I think I would like him to be sensible enough to steer us through this crisis because of his financial background, and he just seems like the steady option against a young dynamic Cameron.

I need to get my hands on some literature and start reading up on all the parties/candidates/policies etc. My views at the moment are massively formed from the media, and I don't really like the media if I'm honest - you never know when they're speaking balls to sell papers (probably most of the time...).

[kingofdeon]

Originally Posted by Carrots Gladstone

Hmmm, Dave's got me back onto seriously considering voting Conservative against all my natural instincts...

My comment about things looking up. I meant looking up for Gordon Brown in that he seems to be clawing back some of the support that he lost.

Got to agree with you on the shitty hand comments too. I keep forgetting that he was in the thick of it for the 10 years prior to taking charge of the country. Whether it's all his doing or not, he has to have had a lot of influence on the current economic state of our country. I think I would like him to be sensible enough to steer us through this crisis because of his financial background, and he just seems like the steady option against a young dynamic Cameron.

I need to get my hands on some literature and start reading up on all the parties/candidates/policies etc. My views at the moment are massively formed from the media, and I don't really like the media if I'm honest - you never know when they're speaking balls to sell papers (probably most of the time...).

Don't listen to the media, listen to David Cameron and you'll find he is a complete wanker. If he wins he wins on default cause the Labour party are a shambles at the moment and there is NO chance of Gordon Brown getting a win.

The country needs a major shake up on so many fronts and i just can't see ANY of the candidates being up to the task.

I reckon Simon Cowell goes for PM.

[Carrots Gladstone]

Jeremy Clarkson

EDIT: The scary thing is if Simon Cowell went for PM he'd probably win.

[Adam Easy Wishes]

I would leave the country if Clarkson was made PM.

[Alkaline]

Originally Posted by Dave

And who dealt that hand? Surely you can't absolve Brown from making some well-documented catastrophic errors during his time as Chancellor and PM? How can we trust him not to do the same, or worse, in the future. To carry on the card metaphor, he's a busted flush.

I think we can go all the way back to Callaghan for that. He's not really made any more "catastrophic" errors than anyone else and i think he's made a valiant attempt at stabilising the economy and things are slowly (very slowly) leveling out.

I firmly believe that if we went Conservative we'd just be trading like for like and the Conservatives don't seem to have much of a long term plan for anything.

While Brown might be a grumpy sod i have utter faith in him, as i did in Tony Blair.

Dave, you are one of a few Tories i actually know who seem to have forgotten how shite it was living in the UK during the Thatcher and Major years.