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[KimyReizeger]

Originally Posted by Bear

They're no more responsible for their government than I am for mine.
..

But democratic governments in capitalist states serve the demands of the people within (thus technically making the people responsible - whether or not this is the reality, I've personally no idea). Where exactly does blame lie in any conflict? On what individual's head? Or is it on all of us, our collective ways; do I not acquiesce every time I fill up my car? Like the cannabis thread, you are assuming such things as 'individuals' within nations, unaccountable to and not affecting anyone else - Gollum-type characters living in the hills.

[Neil]

Originally Posted by Stripey

Military service is mandatory in Israel...

I know that. But you don't know that they support/agree with what the IDF do or the actions of their government.

[Stripey]

Originally Posted by Neil

I know that. But you don't know that they support/agree with what the IDF do or the actions of their government.

You don't know that they don't either, have you got any evidence of their political beliefs? Is it really that unreasonable to raise this question? Because it is a fact that these guys have served in the IDF and have probably manned checkpoints, pointed guns at people and god knows what else.

[Neil]

Originally Posted by Stripey

You don't know that they don't either, have you got any evidence of their political beliefs? Is it really that unreasonable to raise this question?

Nope, I don't. But I'm not the one encouraging people to boycott them on the basis of nothing more than an assumption.

[Bear]

Originally Posted by KimyReizeger

But democratic governments in capitalist states serve the demands of the people within (thus technically making the people responsible - whether or not this is the reality, I've personally no idea). Where exactly does blame lie in any conflict? On what individual's head?

These things are way complicated and things usually aren't black and white because life isn't but as a pretty general rule the people who order stuff and actually carry it out are responsible. Would every single German have been responsible for Hitler? Is every old German alive today really responsible for that? I think not. What do you think KimyReizeger?

Actually I think giving the order is probably worse than carrying it out, I think most people would do something bad if someone in a position of authority told them to and said they'd be in trouble if they didn't . Giving the order is morally worse I think, because it's something they actually want to happen, rather than something they're to weak or scared not to do.

[Stripey]

Originally Posted by Bear

Actually I think giving the order is probably worse than carrying it out, I think most people would do something bad if someone in a position of authority told them too

I don't know any decent person who would commit a crime because someone else told them to, unless their defense is being a fucking sub-mental xenophobic bootlicker.
Are you really suggesting that the people who physically shot jews in the head in concentration camps are blameless?

[KimyReizeger]

Originally Posted by Bear

These things are way complicated and things usually aren't black and white because life isn't but as a pretty general rule the people who order stuff and actually carry it out are responsible. Would every single German have been responsible for Hitler? Is every old German alive today really responsible for that? I think not. What do you think KimyReizeger?

o.

I just have trouble blaming individuals in government, particularly as the decisions they make are essentially made to benefit us / based on our demands. It's so easy to take the piss out of Bush and Blair, for example, but they are merely faces to vent rage onto; faces, I should add, for a British and American consumer capitalist tradition that surged out of a relentless 19th century industrial revolution and still exists today. This aggressive expansionism has spanned generations - it's in our blood - so where does the blame for desiring and taking resources lie? It's a fairly ingrained concept in European history (see Africa).

You are right to call it complicated though; I fail to see where the individuals are in a nation such as Britain. Maybe we should blame culture, tradition and our collective selves (for not having the strength to change things)?

[Bear]

Originally Posted by Stripey

I don't know any decent person who would commit a crime because someone else told them to, unless their defense is being a fucking sub-mental xenophobic bootlicker.

Really? The evidence suggests that the majority of people will do bad things if someone in authority tells them to. There is was a very famous experiment known as 'The Milgram Experiment' about it, although loads more research has been done since then. If most people really would point blank refuse to obey evil orders there would be far less atrocities in the world.

Originally Posted by Stripey

Are you really suggesting that the people who physically shot jews in the head in concentration camps are blameless?

No, I'm suggesting that there are degrees of evil and there is a huge difference between doing things that you don't want to do, but are scared not to do, and ordering things because you want to see them happen.

[emergency72]

Originally Posted by KimyReizeger

But democratic governments in capitalist states serve the demands of the people within

And the tooth fairy really brings you money if you leave money under your pillow....

[Stripey]

Investigators clear Israeli air force in deaths of Gaza family - CNN.com

"The investigators agreed with the IDF's contention that the family was killed by explosives and weapons that four militants were carrying near the family's home when they were hit by an Israeli aerial assault. The home was extensively damaged, investigators said."

what a fucking horrible lie. "It wasn't our tank shells and airstrike that blew up their house, it was the bombs the militants were carrying when we bombed them" How on earth can this carry on without international humanitarian intervention?