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[KimyReizeger]

Originally Posted by pogofish

private schools consistantly underperform the state sector by a considerable margin.

I'm pretty sure that's not true.. What do you mean exactly?

[RockAustin]

Originally Posted by pogofish

Not convinced - I worked in schools for quite some time & the amount of kids failing to thrive/falling through the cracks worried me a lot. As for socialisation, I saw much better examples in kids educated out of mainstream education - had over 1200 of them shoved on to our books at one point, the council seriously disliked any parent pursuing alternatives.

Schools play their part in that as well - Certainly where I went, it was either leave at 16 for a dead-end job, the dole or for the lucky few a trade apprenticeship. Going into further education was right-up there with the much vaunted jackpot-job for the other kids - being picked-up by a team as a professional footballer. The turn-out when the team scouts were about was amazing, although the chance of even getting a trial was miniscule. I later ended-up working with that school for a while & it was depressing how little had changed.

I do agree however that sending a token number to private schools is a joke. With only a few notable exceptions (Eton being one certainly) private schools consistantly underperform the state sector by a considerable margin.

So what would you replace schools with? What are the alternatives that give better results? I know of home schooling ... but that requires parents/tutors with the time and ability to help.

Is it possible that there were too many students to staff in the school you worked at? I can imagine that individual needs could get over looked for a more general approach if this were the case. Equally there might be little or no support at home. If parents don't have the skills or desire to give their children the type of support they need then the inevitable will happen. Could it be that parents need support or education as much as their children?

I say keep schools, invest in supporting communities in ways that they genuinely need it, pay for this instead of nuclear weapons. Government needs to provide this support as a priority in order to raise the bottom standards of living to an acceptable level. This could mean that we don't have to spend so much money on prisons in the future.

School environment is really just a minuature version of the larger community it supports and shows how social issues directly effect the potential of children (there are obviously exceptions as you mentioned). I think the real issues are wide ranging and have built up over such a long time that it is hard to see exactly where the roots are but my argument is that most problem issues are out with schools. How much can a school be expected to acheive with its current remit. If there is no support at home and within communities then you can't expect anything less than kids dropping out at an early age with very few options more appealing than the dole.

[pogofish]

Originally Posted by KimyReizeger

I'm pretty sure that's not true.. What do you mean exactly?

It is very true - With only a few exceptions at the very top of the tree, even with merciless selection, most struggle to equal an average city comp & till recently, they assessed & graded themselves to a much lower standard than state schools (hence the often grandiose but empty claims about academic performance). However, this is slowly rectifying itself, although I don't see many advertising their HMI grades yet.

[pogofish]

Originally Posted by RockAustin

So what would you replace schools with?

I know of home schooling ... but that requires parents/tutors with the time and ability to help.

Is it possible that there were too many students to staff in the school you worked at?

Could it be that parents need support or education as much as their children?

I say keep schools, invest in supporting communities in ways that they genuinely need it, uture.

School environment is really just a minuature version of the larger community it supports and shows how social issues directly effect the potential of children

You presume there are schools to replace? I've had dealings with education depts who were so far off the mark with their legal, educational & moral responsabilities (to both pupils & staff) that I'd question if what we have now could be properly described as education. Versatility would be the key - find the best enviroment for the kid to learn in. Or not if that is the case. In my current job, I'm often pleased to see someone who was remaindered as a dead-loss back then, returning to to education when they are properly ready to learn & doing very well.

Possible - Overcrowding plays its part certainly but I'd be wary about latching on to something as simplistic as that for an answer. Saw all sorts of class sizes with differing results - I worked across a group of schools & later was loaned-out to some of the best & worst across Scotland & frankly, only a few garnered much respect.

Certainly, parents need to be got on-side & that was often a very big part of the problems with many of the the kids I worked with.

Communities can be a double-edged sword. In principle, yes I agree that much more should be done to involve them but equally, I've seen schools/school management with strong community links who were shit-scared to do anything that might upset the local apple cart & ended up making decisions that reflected local hearsay/issues/politics better than the educational/social needs of their kids.

Don't agree at all. Schools are amongst the most artificial, petty & narrow-minded environments out there. Education has always been about stretching horizons to me, not hemming them in.

[KimyReizeger]

Originally Posted by pogofish

they assessed & graded themselves to a much lower standard than state schools

That's not possible with Higher exams, everyone sits the same one.

[pogofish]

Originally Posted by KimyReizeger

That's not possible with Higher exams, everyone sits the same one.

Has nothing to do with higher results.

The ISI & HMI inspectorates were two different bodies with different standards who only started singing from the same hymn sheet in the last few years. So yes, it is quite possible.

[RockAustin]

What do you do in education?

[pogofish]

I work in higher education now. Various aspects of specialised support.

[KimyReizeger]

Originally Posted by pogofish

Has nothing to do with higher results.

The ISI & HMI inspectorates were two different bodies with different standards who only started singing from the same hymn sheet in the last few years. So yes, it is quite possible.

Have you just exposed the biggest scam in the history of education?

I feel you're suggesting that the higher standard of teaching in public schools has no impact on exam performance (a ridiculous view, if this is indeed what you are saying), yet also criticising the low standard you've come across in state schools? There is simply no reason why public schools with their money, pushy parents, high-flying teachers and extra-curricular activities would achieve lower grades.

[RockAustin]

You can't get rid of schools without a viable and fundable alternative.

Scottish education, from my experience, is pretty good. But then my parents were able to support me and gave me good discipline.

Does what you were doing have a job title... was it a specialised teaching role or supporting teachers or kids having difficulties? What are you doing in Higher Education and how do you think it compares with school education? I'm fully aware that there are problems with the education system, teachers having too much paper work, possibly forced into "league table" orientated teaching rather than having some degree of flexibility. No real powers to control children who are out of control, poor pay for level of social responsibility ....

These problems have more to do with the people controlling the direction of education and the purse strings rather than principle of schools.