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[Stichman]

Originally Posted by lovers_spit

em, no. the condiments have split up. quite a while ago.


or they better have, cos the guitarist is now in my band and we have a show the same day

Really? Didn't they just release an album on Foyer Records?

[Angusr]

Originally Posted by Stichman

Really? Didn't they just release an album on Foyer Records?

Yes, that's correct.

They played their last gig at the Tunnels before the CD was released.

The reason for them splitting up is that one of the band members is moving away from Aberdeen.

[daveofficer]

Originally Posted by Cloud

It's incredibly complex, but basically, there may very well be issues if the publicly funded Lemon Tree goes head to head with a privately owned Moshulu for the same audience. It depends on so much, but it wouldn't be a surprise if a condition of their funding was to not directly compete with private business.

eh? surely just by opening their doors they're competing. get a grip min. why would they not be allowed to compete with private business? should the bbc not compete with itv and sky for tv audiences, actors, writers, producers and other talent?

i like how you've dodged the complete rubbishness of your statement by saying "it's incredibly complex".

*gets comfy in seat and assumes optimum listening position*

i'm all ears, prey tell, how is this incredibly complex and on what does it depend?

[Lucky Rathen]

Originally Posted by daveofficer

eh? surely just by opening their doors they're competing. get a grip min. why would they not be allowed to compete with private business? should the bbc not compete with itv and sky for tv audiences, actors, writers, producers and other talent?

i like how you've dodged the complete rubbishness of your statement by saying "it's incredibly complex".

*gets comfy in seat and assumes optimum listening position*

i'm all ears, prey tell, how is this incredibly complex and on what does it depend?

I'm sure he will explain, but your teeny tiny brain may not be able to understand the complexity of it

[Bigsby]

Originally Posted by daveofficer

eh? surely just by opening their doors they're competing. get a grip min. why would they not be allowed to compete with private business? should the bbc not compete with itv and sky for tv audiences, actors, writers, producers and other talent?

i like how you've dodged the complete rubbishness of your statement by saying "it's incredibly complex".

*gets comfy in seat and assumes optimum listening position*

i'm all ears, prey tell, how is this incredibly complex and on what does it depend?

lol, my thoughts exactly. I can't wait to hear Cloud's explanation. The words "Monopolies and Mergers Commission" may be involved.

For what it's worth, other businesses have moaned for years about The Lemon Tree's subsidised status, Flash for one complained about it on here quite a lot.

[lovers_spit]

Originally Posted by Angusr

Yes, that's correct.

They played their last gig at the Tunnels before the CD was released.

The reason for them splitting up is that one of the band members is moving away from Aberdeen.

3 out of the 4 band members are moving to the burgh.

Yeah they had an EP on foyer released after the split. Fucking good record, shame to see them go.

[Cloud]

Originally Posted by daveofficer

eh? surely just by opening their doors they're competing. get a grip min. why would they not be allowed to compete with private business? should the bbc not compete with itv and sky for tv audiences, actors, writers, producers and other talent?

i like how you've dodged the complete rubbishness of your statement by saying "it's incredibly complex".

*gets comfy in seat and assumes optimum listening position*

i'm all ears, prey tell, how is this incredibly complex and on what does it depend?

Okay, the big case at the minute is in shipping - with the EU investigating the subsidies given to CalMac. I'm not sure how far back the investigation is going, but the core case revolves round them being given subsidises despite being publicly owned (CalMac, in both current and previous guises is ultimately owned by Scotland, it's the last great nationalised industry in some respects).

On one of the CalMac routes, they have been competiting directly against a private concern in Western Ferries for a long time now - and quite a few people have been arguing against this, particularly as they're being subsidised to over £2 million a year on the one route alone. It's also being argued that as the Scottish Government (and the Executive, and the Scottish Office before that) is funding routes, there's no opportunity for a private operator to actually come in.

There's also a current issue in Poland concerning state aid being given to their historically important shipyards in Gdansk - I'm not too sure what the latest move is, but last week, the EU demanded that Poland either come up with a viable plan for the future, or get repayment of the subsidies given to the shipyards. This is partially because the shipyards have no hope (unless drastically restructed, something that would be massively unpopular in Poland..given the rise of Solidarity from a shipyard, you just don't mess with them) of ever operating on a fair playing field with the rest of the EU.

There's countless other examples recently - Alitalia are another example of a high profile industry that has suffered quite badly under the pretty strict rules on state aid.

Now, fair enough, the Lemon Tree is a far smaller fish - but the same principle still applies. A useful link is here - EUROPA - European Commission - Competition

It takes some digging around on the internet to actually find relevant parts, but one example from the Europa site is this..

As a first step, it has to determine if a company has received State aid, which is the case if the support meets the following criteria:

1. there has been an intervention by the State or through State resources which can take a variety of forms (e.g. grants, interest and tax reliefs, guarantees, government holdings of all or part of a company, or the provision of goods and services on preferential terms, etc.),
2. the intervention is likely to affect trade between Member States,
3. the intervention confers an advantage to the recipient on a selective basis, for example to specific companies or sectors of the industry, or to companies located in specific regions,
4. competition has been or may be distorted.

The only criteria in which it falls down is the 2nd one - but further reading seems to suggest that the defintion of 'trade between Member States' is rather loose and can be applied in a rather flexible way.

Now...take the situation with the Lemon Tree. If it's receiving a public grant (from whoever), and using it to programme commercial, popular music on a regular basis (let's say for the sake of argument, it's doing so 4 times a week), from which Moshulu suffers because they haven't got the subsidies to do so, then it's distorting competition. We could be here all day debating it - but the principle is that they were (and likely still are) receiving state aid in order to open their doors. The test though, is in how much they compete with other venues.

As you said, by opening their doors, they're competing. That's not the point - they're not competiting on a fair and level playing field, if the Lemon Tree is receiving subsidises to do the same thing.

Would you be terribly happy if someone was battling for your business as a photographer, but who got several thousand pounds to buy the latest equipment that you couldn't afford? Or, say Hog knew someone and got given 10,000 from the State in order to open a new studio. All fine and well, but then you discover that he's actually using the studio for commercial purposes, and competiting directly with your own studio. You can't afford to kit out your studio in the same way he can, and he's only doing the occasional thing for the public benefit, the rest of the time is for commercial gain. It's the same principle - public money should not be used to distort competition in the marketplace.

The BBC is a strange example, I suspect that because the nature of public broadcasting is/was engrained in Europe, the EU haven't actually done anything about it. Seemingly the right to public broadcasting has been enshrined in the Treaty of Amsterdam as being a matter left to the national governments, but I'm writing this quickly. There's what appears to be an interesting webpage at State aid law and the BBC - Reckon Open though.

I do remeber there being murmurings that the licence fee should be spread out equally, but the BBC was somewhat vicious in their demands that they keep all of it. I'm not clued up on it, though.

[stuartmaxwell]

what is the charity status of the organisation in question? are they not for profit ltd business? i.e reinvest revenue for the purpose of serving their client group or achieving their objectives

[soundian]

Several points Cloud, dunno if you have the answers to them at your pedantic little fingertips but here goes:
1) Is the new Lemon Tree receiving funding?
2) Are there any caveats attached to any funding, such as restricting usage of funds to theatre or suchlike?
3) Last time I checked, Aberdeen City was not a state so any funding from them wouldn't come under the legislation quoted above.
4) Any state funding would come from the arts council wouldn't it, I'm sure moshulu are perfectly within their rights to apply for grants from them as well.

While I'm here:
I think people are being a bit quick to jump on the programming, most bands of the size that could sell-out the LT have their tours booked months in advance so even if they started sourcing acts in April you wouldn't really see the benefits of it until at least October.
I'd give them until next spring before gathering the frenzied mob complete with burning torches and pitchforks myself cos jan and feb are a bit quiet tourwise.
That's my 2p's worth on the subject.

[daveofficer]

Originally Posted by Cloud

Okay, the big case at the minute is in shipping... *google* blah blah blah... tenuous link back to my job...blah blah

Some fair points there though I don't think the Calmac comparison is viable given that the government is surely under some obligation to provide subsidies to Calmac in order to keep vital ferry services afloat. They may be competing with Western Ferries on more commercially viable routes but I doubt they have much competition on the majority of their routes which undoubtably would lose a hella lot of money outside of tourist season but which are vital to the health and well being of the western isles.

The funding Lemon Tree receives normally is earmarked for certain uses if i remember correctly. So if ACC gives them a large sum of money it's on the understanding it is used for community arts projects or education not for booking commercial touring acts. You could argue that this money helps raise the profile of the Lemon Tree but that would be picky.

As for the camera and studio analogy. There are plenty of grants available for photography equipment if you need funding for a specific project. Once that project is completed there is nothing stopping you from pursuing a more commercial career.

Anyhoo, why don't you go tip the EU off about the Lemon Tree and then we'll find out where they stand.