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[Bigsby]

Originally Posted by prof_lofi

This is what we've lost, this is the true shortsightedness of the council, this is what we should all be gasping about.

I should preface this by saying that I'm a fan of the Lemon Tree and I hope a soloution can be found BUT presumably the board/management came up with a business plan etc. They obviously haven't been able to deliver it, leading to the board having to go back to the council to ask for more cash.

How often could the council keep writing cheques? Shouldn't the board/management have "cut its cloth" to match the resources it was being given? Could it have scaled back some of the unquestionably admirable programmes you mentioned to prevent the situation we are in now?

[prof_lofi]

Originally Posted by Bigsby

I should preface this by saying that I'm a fan of the Lemon Tree and I hope a soloution can be found BUT presumably the board/management came up with a business plan etc. They obviously haven't been able to deliver it, leading to the board having to go back to the council to ask for more cash.

How often could the council keep writing cheques? Shouldn't the board/management have "cut its cloth" to match the resources it was being given? Could it have scaled back some of the unquestionably admirable programmes you mentioned to prevent the situation we are in now?

Hi Bigsby,

Well, I can't really speak as a rep of the L.Tree as I was only responsible for my little part, but I do know it's a lot more complicated than that, though it's easy to see how that might look like the solution.

The money for each program is specific to that program, they are usually funded by a specific grant applied for by the Ltree for that project and managed, facilitated, and supported by the LTree Arts Org. In addition to facilitating/delivering the programs, a big part of the LTree's job is to manage the accounts of each of these programs and constantly be looking for the next grant to keep it going (and usually you have to find a different grant, or 'rebrand' your project as it's almost impossible to find funding to 'continue' a project, no matter how successful it is-stupidest thing about this job if you ask me.)

Anyway, cutting back the projects doesn't free up the money as they are only usable for that specific project (ie you can't use youth music funding to pay the bar staff etc). As someone said, if the LTree wasn't (by design) responsible to all these community arts projects (which means using it's resources to manage all the various grants accounts, scheduling all the in-house and outside activities, housing the projects and performances, chasing up new funding, processing disclosures, etc etc than maybe it could have been better able to run the 'venue' as a commercial endeavor, but then it would be shorting its obligation to facilitate those programs properly, which is it's mandate as an arts org...also, they'd have to explain to other funding bodies why they've accepted arts funding as a charitable organization and yet are overtly pursuing profit at the expense of its arts programs...not to mention that it wouldn't be the L.Tree, it'd be just another venue...)

Thing is, we were doing better this year than ever as far as I can tell. Had a great new staff, much better programming and marketing with good stuff on the horizon etc. If we would have received the Scot. Arts Council funding, none of this would have happened, we'd be on top. But without it, it's impossible really. Truth is, community arts and arts music isn't commercially viable, it just doesn't sell enough to be presented at the standard that the L.Tree was known for doing and that's probably the only truth you'll find in the art world.

Take Drakes for example.. Like many, it was my favorite venue here, and one of my favorite anywhere. They knew how hard it was to run a music venue in town, how almost impossible it was to deliver something that wasn't overtly commercial and still make ends meet. Even if Drakes had 'gone commercial' it would have had to scrape, as any venue does in town. What probably saves most are bar sales and appealing to the drunken masses. So if you take that situation, where you have to book bands at a price where you see a profit, bottom line, and then even then, you're struggling and competing with tons of other bars doing the same thing, and then add the expectation of-not just peppering it with community arts projects-but that being your main focus. Well, you see what I mean.

Just the arts org. side of things is immense, with multiple grants all with their own time scales and expiration dates and program obligations, hired staff, renewed fundings, program design and target outcomes etc etc. Add to that the venue aspect with 500 or so events to schedule a year, constant negotiations with outside artists, local bands, the community arts events (which is the L.Tree's priority), and then add a cafe, technical staff, ticket sales and box office, marketing, magazine and website, etc. All this was run by less than a dozen people, and of that, less than half were full time employees.

If the L.Tree has had problems breaking even since it opened, then maybe it's not that it hasn't been run properly, maybe it just costs more to run than the council is willing to admit and it's easier to blame it than address the situation. If that is the case, then the real question is what is an organization like the Lemon Tree, community arts organization and venue, worth to Aberdeen? What is Aberdeen's commitment to quality music, art, and its communities? And what are our expectations, what are we willing to accept? Is the fact that the culture gap between Liquid and the Music Hall is getting bigger each year and that it's becoming increasingly obvious that the only place to actually do something other than get completely pissed in Aberdeen is to go to a friend's flat or a movie ok?

I tell you what though, if my girlfriend wasn't starting her PhD here in a month, I'd be down the road in a heartbeat. How the third largest city in Scotland, the 'oil capital' of the UK can't afford to subsidize one decent arts organization and music venue that is obviously valued and known by people around the world is beyond me...DundeeCA, Edinburgh:RSA, Glasgow:CCA, Arches, Tramway, NewCastle: Sage etc etc.

"If you build it, they will come" and if you tear it down, most of them are outta here.

Bill

[Jim Stax]

Originally Posted by prof_lofi

If the L.Tree has had problems breaking even since it opened, then maybe it's not that it hasn't been run properly, maybe it just costs more to run than the council is willing to admit and it's easier to blame it than address the situation. If that is the case, then the real question is what is an organization like the Lemon Tree, community arts organization and venue, worth to Aberdeen? What is Aberdeen's commitment to quality music, art, and its communities? And what are our expectations, what are we willing to accept? Is the fact that the culture gap between Liquid and the Music Hall is getting bigger each year and that it's becoming increasingly obvious that the only place to actually do something other than get completely pissed in Aberdeen is to go to a friend's flat or a movie ok?

I tell you what though, if my girlfriend wasn't starting her PhD here in a month, I'd be down the road in a heartbeat. How the third largest city in Scotland, the 'oil capital' of the UK can't afford to subsidize one decent arts organization and music venue that is obviously valued and known by people around the world is beyond me...DundeeCA, Edinburgh:RSA, Glasgow:CCA, Arches, Tramway, NewCastle: Sage etc etc.

"If you build it, they will come" and if you tear it down, most of them are outta here.

Bill

Brilliant Bill! This should be made into a big banner and hung along Union St. Many of us Aberdonians have been banging this drum, give or take, for quite some time. I get fed up of the fight on a monthly basis and like you would have moved, sometime ago, if not for responsibilities. And it saddens me that I still feel like this on and off...

[DrBastard]

Originally Posted by Chris

BBC NEWS | Scotland | North East/N Isles | Arts centre bid wins commendation

I presume when planning for that was granted, they had already known that the lemon tree was to be shut down later on in the year?

I'm giving them benefit of the doubt that they weren't planning on having two such places open in Aberdeen?

Although it's a shame the venue has closed, I agree that there's no shortage of venues in aberdeen. That's literally just common sense given the events of the past few years.

[Bigsby]

Originally Posted by prof_lofi

Hi Bigsby,

Well, I can't really speak as a rep of the L.Tree as I was only responsible for my little part, but I do know it's a lot more complicated than that, though it's easy to see how that might look like the solution.

The money for each program is specific to that program, they are usually funded by a specific grant applied for by the Ltree for that project and managed, facilitated, and supported by the LTree Arts Org. In addition to facilitating/delivering the programs, a big part of the LTree's job is to manage the accounts of each of these programs and constantly be looking for the next grant to keep it going (and usually you have to find a different grant, or 'rebrand' your project as it's almost impossible to find funding to 'continue' a project, no matter how successful it is-stupidest thing about this job if you ask me.)

Anyway, cutting back the projects doesn't free up the money as they are only usable for that specific project (ie you can't use youth music funding to pay the bar staff etc). As someone said, if the LTree wasn't (by design) responsible to all these community arts projects (which means using it's resources to manage all the various grants accounts, scheduling all the in-house and outside activities, housing the projects and performances, chasing up new funding, processing disclosures, etc etc than maybe it could have been better able to run the 'venue' as a commercial endeavor, but then it would be shorting its obligation to facilitate those programs properly, which is it's mandate as an arts org...also, they'd have to explain to other funding bodies why they've accepted arts funding as a charitable organization and yet are overtly pursuing profit at the expense of its arts programs...not to mention that it wouldn't be the L.Tree, it'd be just another venue...)

Thing is, we were doing better this year than ever as far as I can tell. Had a great new staff, much better programming and marketing with good stuff on the horizon etc. If we would have received the Scot. Arts Council funding, none of this would have happened, we'd be on top. But without it, it's impossible really. Truth is, community arts and arts music isn't commercially viable, it just doesn't sell enough to be presented at the standard that the L.Tree was known for doing and that's probably the only truth you'll find in the art world.

Take Drakes for example.. Like many, it was my favorite venue here, and one of my favorite anywhere. They knew how hard it was to run a music venue in town, how almost impossible it was to deliver something that wasn't overtly commercial and still make ends meet. Even if Drakes had 'gone commercial' it would have had to scrape, as any venue does in town. What probably saves most are bar sales and appealing to the drunken masses. So if you take that situation, where you have to book bands at a price where you see a profit, bottom line, and then even then, you're struggling and competing with tons of other bars doing the same thing, and then add the expectation of-not just peppering it with community arts projects-but that being your main focus. Well, you see what I mean.

Just the arts org. side of things is immense, with multiple grants all with their own time scales and expiration dates and program obligations, hired staff, renewed fundings, program design and target outcomes etc etc. Add to that the venue aspect with 500 or so events to schedule a year, constant negotiations with outside artists, local bands, the community arts events (which is the L.Tree's priority), and then add a cafe, technical staff, ticket sales and box office, marketing, magazine and website, etc. All this was run by less than a dozen people, and of that, less than half were full time employees.

If the L.Tree has had problems breaking even since it opened, then maybe it's not that it hasn't been run properly, maybe it just costs more to run than the council is willing to admit and it's easier to blame it than address the situation. If that is the case, then the real question is what is an organization like the Lemon Tree, community arts organization and venue, worth to Aberdeen? What is Aberdeen's commitment to quality music, art, and its communities? And what are our expectations, what are we willing to accept? Is the fact that the culture gap between Liquid and the Music Hall is getting bigger each year and that it's becoming increasingly obvious that the only place to actually do something other than get completely pissed in Aberdeen is to go to a friend's flat or a movie ok?

I tell you what though, if my girlfriend wasn't starting her PhD here in a month, I'd be down the road in a heartbeat. How the third largest city in Scotland, the 'oil capital' of the UK can't afford to subsidize one decent arts organization and music venue that is obviously valued and known by people around the world is beyond me...DundeeCA, Edinburgh:RSA, Glasgow:CCA, Arches, Tramway, NewCastle: Sage etc etc.

"If you build it, they will come" and if you tear it down, most of them are outta here.

Bill

OK, fair enough, so it sounds like those small projects weren't the problem then. But the board must have known that it wasn't getting its SAC grant for some time now. It should have either have cut back somewhere else or been upfront and told the council that they just couldn't do it with what was being offered at the time.

[chilli]

Awarded to The Lemon Tree on 5th Dec 07

Ironic

http://living.scotsman.com/index.cfm?id=1895752007

[blackisler]

Originally Posted by Bigsby

But the board must have known that it wasn't getting its SAC grant for some time now.

Again there has been an awfull lot of mis-reporting with regards to SAC. SAC have not and never have pulled all funding from The Lemon Tree. In 2006 the way all arts organisations in Scotland were funded changed and TLT went from being automatically Core Funded to Project Funded. Yes it was a huge blow and Project Funding in itself did cause difficulties as it was only a 1 year award so very difficult to forward plan and run long term projects. However SAC were so impressed as to how TLT turned itself around that this year they specifically asked us to apply for the next step up of 3 year Flexible Funding. Ironically this application had recently been completed and submitted and we were eagerly anticipationg the successful outcome of the award which would have allowed us to develop a sustainable 3 year plan.

[chilli]

Originally Posted by blackisler

However SAC were so impressed as to how TLT turned itself around that this year they specifically asked us to apply for the next step up of 3 year Flexible Funding. Ironically this application had recently been completed and submitted and we were eagerly anticipationg the successful outcome of the award which would have allowed us to develop a sustainable 3 year plan.

this just fets worse, if the council were made aware of this fact, surely interim support would have been available & they should have funded The LT upto the point of the outcome.

[blackisler]

Originally Posted by chilli

this just fets worse, if the council were made aware of this fact, surely interim support would have been available & they should have funded The LT upto the point of the outcome.

It just reinforces the fact thet the Council know the cost of everything and the value of nothing

[Jamie]

So how's the campaign going? What news of the Lemon Aid fund-raiser?