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[Alex]

Sorry to keep on diverting this thread. Feel free to delete. I wouldn't mind hearing how Dave's getting on with this. I really recommend ableton again-i got to drunkenly DJ at a party and it's excellent (for creating a 60s japanese surfpop montage on the hoof along to a bunch of tasty breaks on the fly, (I probably should have stuck to stripey's preapproved usage guidelines, i know)).

Originally Posted by Stripey

I fully recommend all the wonderful new digital technology for all who may benefit from it if they have the will and the intelligence to use it effectively and the wherewithall to educate themselves.

ARGH. argharghargharghargh. YOU are what's wrong with new technology. You manage a wonderful dichotomy between insisting that Digital Technology(tm) affords marvellous new control and determism to artists (just like every other tool before it) then encysting this in a hidebound contradictory structure of what's wrong, right, new and passe until you've built an entirely new illusory static viewpoint with which to accord faux-universal values, entirely unaware of how you perpetuate the horrible merry-go-round of cliches, and how your own views depend on the (essentially random) choices that others have made before you. There's a perfect contradiction between the right to educate yourself, then choosing that some doesn't "deserve" that chance.

I'd say posting a thread asking for advice from people who've done it already shows at least the extant will to use it effectively (for his own needs) and to educate himself. You say you don't like what Dave's doing or the kind of night. Surely (at the least) saving all the time and effort lugging CDs and cueing them'll afford him time to think what else he wants to do. And if not? I'm guessing it won't affect you in the slightest. Things Change (unless you're a hidebound miserablist who won't accept that kind of thing. Oh wait, it's happened already. Oh dear). Who says Dave wouldn't hit a button with his elbow that turns his conception of DJing on it's head. Probably yourself and your blinkered view of people.

Dave didn't present himself as an authority, didn't say he was amazing, didn't say he didn't need advice. Just pointed out that he's actually DJing, and taking it seriously (and wanting to get better) in defence to your winamp comment. In every post, your polarised hyperbole is serving only to paint you into your own corner. He may play indie pap (or not, I wouldn't know) but there's a marked lack of people actually integrating this digi stuff - I can think of LOADS of things I could do with that kind of scenario to have fun. AND help other people have fun, which is what DJing's all about - fitting the tunes to the night.

Your "vantage point" by dint of being familiar with this technology means sod all (especially to me, anyway). It'd be different if technology defined what you have to and can do with it, but it doesn't. If you'd like an insulting metaphor, I just refrained from three. Email me! It's a big blindfolded adventure! It'd be horrible if people knew what they were doing (and where most of world's problems come up I reckon). Knowing things is overrated.

And finally, Dave doesn't deserve your advice because he's a horrible person? That's a horrible, miserable and lonely viewpoint to take. And your response to such a (perceived!!!!) person? Abuse (or, in your terms, "friendly advice"). Where's the love and compassion? If you'd only share your knowledge without making it a divisive issue ALL THE BLOODY TIME.

[Dave]

Originally Posted by Alex

Sorry to keep on diverting this thread. Feel free to delete. I wouldn't mind hearing how Dave's getting on with this.

Pretty well, thanks. I've got a trial copy of Ableton that I've been toying with over the weekend, I think I'll be confident enough to use it in a live setting in a week or so. The biggest challenge is getting used to a completely new way of doing things. I'll post up some mixes once I've got used to it.

As for all the other stuff on this thread, it's possible I could care less, but I doubt it. I'd like to keep the thread on-topic from now on, though, because not only will it help me, it'll also help others in the future who refer back to it.

[Alex]

Originally Posted by Dave

Pretty well, thanks. I've got a trial copy of Ableton that I've been toying with over the weekend, I think I'll be confident enough to use it in a live setting in a week or so. The biggest challenge is getting used to a completely new way of doing things. I'll post up some mixes once I've got used to it.

best hint: soon's you've found something new, map it to a key or macro or summat - build up a "standard" way of doing things you can constantly revise - keeping a library of intros and clips from songs you can mess around with is pretty handy

[Jim Stax]

Originally Posted by Alex

best hint: soon's you've found something new, map it to a key or macro or summat - build up a "standard" way of doing things you can constantly revise - keeping a library of intros and clips from songs you can mess around with is pretty handy

Me now needs to explore Ableton in a new way as this sounds like great fun, we are allowed to have fun aren't we? Are there downloads needed for Ableton to perform in this manner or is it all in there?

Threads are quite good when they stay on topic eh...

[Alex]

It's all in there - all non-destructive (i.e. no chopping up, though there are LOADS of way round that, and you can designate an external sample editor, eg. soundforge etc) - you could have one song, and just mark off/reduce them to various loops - it automatically does a (pretty decent) attempt of warping each song so it knows where the beats are to loop etc - transposition and fitting each sample to the (current) bpm's handled on the fly and really well.

They do a lot of stuff in V7 that should've been included from the start - i've been messing with running around using a microphone to record and sing loops, then you can click a couple of buttons to have it chopped up by some quantisation measure into seperate individual samplers (all on the same MIDI track), then play the sample with MIDI notes, automating all the samplers to do whatever you want. Having pre-prepared MIDI sequences for the samples is ace (or map them to a keyboard/whatever and record on the fly). So far I'm just playing simple drum beats and singing overlaying harmonies, but I'd like to get round to composing some mad looping tunes - means I re-interpret/mangle extant loops into entirely new parts, rather than just constantly building/fading out loops.

[Jim Stax]

Originally Posted by Alex

It's all in there - all non-destructive (i.e. no chopping up, though there are LOADS of way round that, and you can designate an external sample editor, eg. soundforge etc) - you could have one song, and just mark off/reduce them to various loops - it automatically does a (pretty decent) attempt of warping each song so it knows where the beats are to loop etc - transposition and fitting each sample to the (current) bpm's handled on the fly and really well.

They do a lot of stuff in V7 that should've been included from the start - i've been messing with running around using a microphone to record and sing loops, then you can click a couple of buttons to have it chopped up by some quantisation measure into seperate individual samplers (all on the same MIDI track), then play the sample with MIDI notes, automating all the samplers to do whatever you want. Having pre-prepared MIDI sequences for the samples is ace (or map them to a keyboard/whatever and record on the fly). So far I'm just playing simple drum beats and singing overlaying harmonies, but I'd like to get round to composing some mad looping tunes - means I re-interpret/mangle extant loops into entirely new parts, rather than just constantly building/fading out loops.

Realise that I do much of what you say anyhoo. Just never think of it along these lines. I am thinking of upgrading to 7...

[Alex]

think my next overhaul's going to be making a big pd/maxmsp patch i can use to control ableton (and run as a vst inside) in preparation for producing some "proper" songs. I'm really hoping their meetups with cycling '74 yield something interesting - expanding the time signature/followonaction stuff into a rudimentary scripting/sequencing language (python. please!!) would bring me to my knees (or vice versa ). Or I could just dust off my patching skills and do it myself.

ps. sorry i seem chronically unable to stay on-thread, but i've been getting into python. functions as objects!!!

[Jim Stax]

Originally Posted by Alex

think my next overhaul's going to be making a big pd/maxmsp patch i can use to control ableton (and run as a vst inside) in preparation for producing some "proper" songs. I'm really hoping their meetups with cycling '74 yield something interesting - expanding the time signature/followonaction stuff into a rudimentary scripting/sequencing language (python. please!!) would bring me to my knees (or vice versa ). Or I could just dust off my patching skills and do it myself.

ps. sorry i seem chronically unable to stay on-thread, but i've been getting into python. functions as objects!!!

thing is
1/ I'm a drummer first...
2/ I use a programme for what i need it to do and don't explore much beyond that
3/ I have no idea what most of the quoted means
4/ I'm keen to figure it out and have no excuse as i have the manual

[Stripey]

Originally Posted by Alex

ARGH. argharghargharghargh. YOU are what's wrong with new technology. You manage a wonderful dichotomy between insisting that Digital Technology(tm) affords marvellous new control and determism to artists (just like every other tool before it) then encysting this in a hidebound contradictory structure of what's wrong, right, new and passe until you've built an entirely new illusory static viewpoint with which to accord faux-universal values, entirely unaware of how you perpetuate the horrible merry-go-round of cliches, and how your own views depend on the (essentially random) choices that others have made before you. There's a perfect contradiction between the right to educate yourself, then choosing that some doesn't "deserve" that chance.

It is bizarre that you make so many assumptions about me, and slightly scary that you've spent so much time thinking about me to come up with a post this longwinded.

You are completely wrong of course, my views don't depend on anyone elses choices or what anyone else has done before and have nothing to do with cliches, they are based on 12 years of hands on experience and hard work using and abusing music technology.

The fact is, the guy would not benefit from buying a timecoded vinyl solution because it is completely irrelevant to the way he mixes, and buying a timecoded CD solution just means transferring some digital data from lightweight, easily transportable and replaced media onto a bulky, expensive, error prone laptop where one spilled drink means your whole night is over.
Apparently this common sense, informed advice is complete bullshit in your opinion though.

Originally Posted by Alex

Your "vantage point" by dint of being familiar with this technology means sod all (especially to me, anyway). It'd be different if technology defined what you have to and can do with it, but it doesn't.

Well, who do you suggest is best placed to advise, someone who knows nothing about it atall? Technology in it's very nature defines what you can and can't do with it - there are only so many ways to use a hammer for example, not all of which might be what it was originally designed to do, but you are never going to use a hammer to do the job of an electron scanning microscope, regardless of how much you shout at in outrage.

Originally Posted by Alex

If you'd only share your knowledge without making it a divisive issue ALL THE BLOODY TIME.

I don't make it a divisive issue, it's people like you who can't let other people have their opinions and mind their own business who are divisive.

For what it's worth, I see absolutely no reason why I should share my knowledge with people I don't know, and this particular case don't care for atall. I find it hilarious that people will post threads on here hoping for a handout instead of getting off their arse and doing some research. Frankly, someone that lazy doesn't really need to know anyway.

[Alex]

Twojoe - was just talking about using another program (PD or max/msp. check them out!) to (mainly) control the MIDI input/output and audio outputs from ableton, whilst running bits of them as VSTs inside ableton so I can integrate some of my other max/msp and PD projects into my live (ho-ho) setup. I was saying I wouldn't mind some easy real-timeish programming language to control ableton, so I can run it completely slaved under another program, but I looked again at what I'd actually like it to do and tbh it's nearly all doable with a good MIDImapped ableton setup.

Stripey-I'm just going to post the single decent, reasoned actualpiece of advice you've given throughout the thread so I don't have to argue with it. I wouldn't mind carrying this on in private, but you've made it perfectly clear debate/argument without an audience is pointless to you.

Originally Posted by Stripey

The fact is, the guy would not benefit from buying a timecoded vinyl solution because it is completely irrelevant to the way he mixes, and buying a timecoded CD solution just means transferring some digital data from lightweight, easily transportable and replaced media onto a bulky, expensive, error prone laptop where one spilled drink means your whole night is over.

have a brownie