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[Mouse]

"I think music ought to be free. People ought to be able to download any music for nothing. This would destroy the recorded music business and the marketing machine that goes with it - all that mediocre talent being constantly forced into our eyes and ears. It would stop. Good bands would still build up fans through word of mouth and genuine excitement about the music. They could make a living by asking their fans to contribute to the recording expenses and by playing live shows. I personally think that most artists would be financially better-off without the music business. Music would be better too" - Steve Hogarth, Marillion

Wot y'all think of this quote? I 100% agree

[jester1470]

Originally Posted by Mouse

"I think music ought to be free. People ought to be able to download any music for nothing. This would destroy the recorded music business and the marketing machine that goes with it - all that mediocre talent being constantly forced into our eyes and ears. It would stop. Good bands would still build up fans through word of mouth and genuine excitement about the music. They could make a living by asking their fans to contribute to the recording expenses and by playing live shows. I personally think that most artists would be financially better-off without the music business. Music would be better too" - Steve Hogarth, Marillion

Wot y'all think of this quote? I 100% agree

I agree, but then H wouldn't have been able to afford his nice BMW. I like his attitude but sadly i've tended to feel more and more the last few years that marillion have sacrificed idealism for money, i mean 30 for a 2 cd prerelease boxset, complete rip off in my opinion, they charged 20 for the same set in 2001. Much as i like their music, and the innovations in marketing that they've put forward for the rest of the industry that have helped many smaller bands survive i disagree with the amount of money etc they're making off their products and the prices they've charged for things, they were selling a fake gold disks for 169 at one point, there was no reason for that. The band have a loyal following and could make a lot just off that, but in the last few years specifically with the Marbles campaign have pushed that a bit. It's a shame tho...

Great music, great marketing, too greedy recently

Cheers

Stuart

[bryn]

Totally totally agree. I've had many a drunken debate and argued lines so close to that quote. I feel free music would, ultimately, force artists to write better music, with the eradication of record company promotion etc.

[Drew DigiTek]

I agree with some parts, i.e there is allot more money in doing shows and gonig on the road BUT fans would NEVER pay studio time for their fav artists to record and they would NEVER help pay for equipment such as Digital desks, guitars, mixers etc also paying the producers and engineers. You can all say "I would !" but I bet if it came down to it you would NOT. Just my opinion on the matter, take it as you like

[jester1470]

Originally Posted by Drew DigiTek

I agree with some parts, i.e there is allot more money in doing shows and gonig on the road BUT fans would NEVER pay studio time for their fav artists to record and they would NEVER help pay for equipment such as Digital desks, guitars, mixers etc also paying the producers and engineers. You can all say "I would !" but I bet if it came down to it you would NOT. Just my opinion on the matter, take it as you like

Agreed, its easy for a band that have their own studio to say this, Marillion were a very big band, made a lot of money and have the luxury of a fanbase in the hundreds of thousands and their own very good studio in the Racket Club, it's well know and Marillion themselves have stated they hardly make any money off of touring so how do they expect other smaller bands do it ?

Cheer

Stuart

[Dave]

Originally Posted by Mouse

"I think music ought to be free. People ought to be able to download any music for nothing. This would destroy the recorded music business and the marketing machine that goes with it - all that mediocre talent being constantly forced into our eyes and ears. It would stop. Good bands would still build up fans through word of mouth and genuine excitement about the music. They could make a living by asking their fans to contribute to the recording expenses and by playing live shows. I personally think that most artists would be financially better-off without the music business. Music would be better too" - Steve Hogarth, Marillion

Wot y'all think of this quote? I 100% agree

I 100% disagree. It's just so wrong-headed I don't know where to begin. It's idealistic nonsense from someone who's made his money and reputation by playing the record industry game.

"Mediocre talent"-this is from a member of Marillion, for fuck's sake! This from a band that sub-letted the Genesis Home Of Pseudo-Muso Wankery and made some of the most godawful music of the 80's.

What about the complete overhaul of copyright law in this and every other country around the world, which, if the steps encouraged by Mr. Hogarth suggests were applied, would enable me to walk into Aberdeen Art Gallery tomorrow and remove anything I thought would look good on my bathroom wall? On the way back home, I might just stop off at Waterstones and pick up a few dozen bestsellers free of charge.

As for profiting from live shows-unless you're Bono, Paul McCartney or Mick Jagger, tours and live gigs are promotional exercises to encourage product sales (current album/back catalogue), and are almost always loss-making.

Right, that's enough for just now.

[jester1470]

Originally Posted by Louis Louie

I 100% disagree. It's just so wrong-headed I don't know where to begin. It's idealistic nonsense from someone who's made his money and reputation by playing the record industry game.

"Mediocre talent"-this is from a member of Marillion, for fuck's sake! This from a band that sub-letted the Genesis Home Of Pseudo-Muso Wankery and made some of the most godawful music of the 80's.

Except for the fact that Steve Hogarth wasn't in the banduntil 1989 so that tag doesn't really follow him. Hogarth's best stuff is possiobly his solo stuff where he does work with some superb musicians, people from XTC, Stone Roses, Massive Attack, Porcupine Tree, Japan etc, these people don't really fall into the preconceptions you have of him. Whereas i disagree with much of what Hogarth says especially in this case, you can't deny that when it comes to the music industry Marillion have been one of the bands in the forefront of using the new medium of internet to market and sell their stuff.

Hogarth actually had a reputation from 2 bands before Marillion, a band called the Europeans and a band called How we Live.

They were the first band to presell and finance an album via the fanbase and the internet allowing them to seek a distribution only deal with EMI and keeping complete commercial control. They were also amongst the first bands to finance a tour by the fans contributing, the 1997 US tour was completely financed by fans and the band themselves never made a penny from ticket sales, all the people who contributed to the tour fund got a signed Live CD from the tour. The only occasiona this was done befroe was by their ex lead singer Fish who presold a live album to help finance a US tour. They also hold the record for quickest music DVD release when 2 years ago they recorded a concert on the Friday and had the DVD pressed and for sale by the Sunday lunchtime. The band have been at the forefront of using new medium to sell themselves for years, they were amongst if not the first band to use Electronic Press Kits too, which are now commonplace amongst bands.

You may not like the music, but the music they're producing now has little in common with Genesis and nothing wrong with wearing your influences on your arm for your first release, after that there was no similarity at all, they now have more in common with Radiohead (who were big fans and were listening frequently to the Marillion album Brave which they requested from EMI as a prerelease whilst recording OK Computer) than Genesis. The art of preselling albums is known throughout the music world now as 'doing a Marillion' and has been done by many bands including the Levellers, Toad the Wet Spriocket and a load of others.

They are without a doubt one of the most innovatively marketed bands out there, and they have done a lot to help change the way the internet is used for the smaller bands.

In this case i think Hogarth is being idealistic but to write off his opinions based on the fact he was with a band you don't think much of is a bit stupid seeing what they've achieved.

Cheers

Stuart

[Dave]

Originally Posted by jester1470

Except for the fact that Steve Hogarth wasn't in the banduntil 1989 so that tag doesn't really follow him. Hogarth's best stuff is possiobly his solo stuff where he does work with some superb musicians, people from XTC, Stone Roses, Massive Attack, Porcupine Tree, Japan etc, these people don't really fall into the preconceptions you have of him. Whereas i disagree with much of what Hogarth says especially in this case, you can't deny that when it comes to the music industry Marillion have been one of the bands in the forefront of using the new medium of internet to market and sell their stuff.

Their product is being marketed and sold. Does it matter to the consumer if this is done by the artists themselves or a company representing them? Either way, it doesn't sound much like Hogarth's belief in free music for all is being put into practice.

Surely the issue is that artists should have the opportunity to reach a mass audience and have the resources to produce their best possible material. In an ideal world, sure, musicians would be able to distribute their wares on exchange for donations and goodwill, but it's not an ideal world. Free downloads mean less royalty payments for artists and less revenue for record companies. Artists that only have a small fanbase will struggle financially, and may eventually have to find another career path. Record companies will be forced further into the mainstream, and will be less willing to take risks on unknown artists.

The Marillion solution works fine for them, but they have 20 years of publicity and record company funding behind them. What hope for the thousands of new acts hoping for a slice of the action?

Kudos on your background knowledge of the band. They really aren't my cup of tea (as you probably guessed), but I do appreciate a bit of fannish geekism

[jester1470]

Originally Posted by Louis Louie

Their product is being marketed and sold. Does it matter to the consumer if this is done by the artists themselves or a company representing them? Either way, it doesn't sound much like Hogarth's belief in free music for all is being put into practice.

Surely the issue is that artists should have the opportunity to reach a mass audience and have the resources to produce their best possible material. In an ideal world, sure, musicians would be able to distribute their wares on exchange for donations and goodwill, but it's not an ideal world. Free downloads mean less royalty payments for artists and less revenue for record companies. Artists that only have a small fanbase will struggle financially, and may eventually have to find another career path. Record companies will be forced further into the mainstream, and will be less willing to take risks on unknown artists.

The Marillion solution works fine for them, but they have 20 years of publicity and record company funding behind them. What hope for the thousands of new acts hoping for a slice of the action?

Kudos on your background knowledge of the band. They really aren't my cup of tea (as you probably guessed), but I do appreciate a bit of fannish geekism

I totally agree with what you're saying for the most part, its easy for a band in Marillion's position to be idealistic. That being said Marillion only had 10 years of record company backing, but thats 10 successfull years with EMI, more than most bands could dream of. I agree completely in that i think its the way to go for established artists but not for up and coming bands. The naievity of Hogarth in this is actually very surprising to me. I see the same thing here every day with bands who state they will neve sign to a major because they're evil; you're only as evil as the contract you choose to sign and the fact that they may take half your money for 10 years but they will then allow you to have a career for another 10 or 15 that you wouldn't have had if you were a small pub band.

I am a big fan of the way Marillion's marketed themselves and i know a lot about them, Jo supported them, and then when she did the European tour with Hogarth's solo band I got to tag along. Tehir markeeting manager Lucy is a good friend of mine, and in general they do a superb job, just occasionally imho get a bit too greedy. Undoubtedly a good model tho on a mid sized band running your music as a business and self management.

Cheers

Stuart

[Mouse]

Originally Posted by Louis Louie

"Mediocre talent"-this is from a member of Marillion, for fuck's sake! This from a band that sub-letted the Genesis Home Of Pseudo-Muso Wankery and made some of the most godawful music of the 80's.

Ok I'm not bothered about comparing them to Genesis, but I totally disagree with your last statement. Marillion made some of the best music in the 80's, easily