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[GraemeC]

"Any comments or advice are welcome!"

Ok heres my advice.....I can re-word the whole thing for you.

Drums.

The house kit will be used at all times.

Bass.

The house amp will be used at all times.

Guitars.

A maximum of 2x4x12's and 1xcombo on stage at any given time.

Monitors.

they are very limited and you will only get what I choose to give you.

Soundcheck.

Shut the fuck up until I say you can make a noise.



That says it all without the lecture on economics and sound engineering.

G...

[Flash@TMB]

You're catching on...

[GraemeC]

Originally Posted by Flash@TMB

You're catching on...

Its an age thing.

[soundian]

Originally Posted by Flash@TMB

You neglected to mention that if instruments occupy the same frequencies then things like mic bleed become more apparent, say between the bass, the kick drum, and the floor tom. IME incorporating all the various frequencies of a different drum kit whilst avoiding turning the bottom end to mud isn't exactly a trivial job. Unless you don't have a problem with the bottom end being muddy...



NEWSFLASH: when you cut a hole in something sound exits via the hole whether the hole is intended for that purpose or not. The hole is easier to exit than the skin so apply principle of conversion of energy (given the sound energy is finite), and cutting the hole in the kickdrum inadvertantly makes it harder for the drummer to hear the drum. Even a 1mm hole can severaly compromise an otherwise soundproofed partition. Try going out an exit and slowly closing the door, only when the door is fully shut does the volume tail off sharply... WAIT why am I even getting into this pedantic trivial nonsense??? Ian, I concede - let's leave it there.

The rest of your points had already been dealt with.



Yeah like it got a lot less silly after you interjected. Not. Straight talking... I read your response as a cheap shot at scoring easy points. If I'm wrong in that interpretation then please accept my appologies. It's been a long day.

Unfortunately this is heading at a tangent away from the original intention which was to help me devise a workable template. I am continually editing and refining the original post so that it's easy to focus on the wood as opposed to the trees.

Jeez, don't even try. I wasn't taking a cheap shot, hence the apology at the end of the post. I was letting you do your thing but you, and other people, were talking such complete horseshit I had to say something

If you want me to take a cheap shot or ten I'll gladly oblige, it's not like I've never done this before.

EDIT> I can see, after looking back at my original post, why you might have taken umbrage at my simplistic use of language during my bit on drums. The lack of grammar was purely for drummers, I just get used to talking about drums in simplistic terms e.g. "You drummer? Make big boom sound"= "kick drum please".

Hahaha, it's always an entertaining read when flash posts some technical stuff and Ian comes along and picks it apart!

[soundian]

Originally Posted by Sundaram

Hahaha, it's always an entertaining read when flash posts some technical stuff and Ian comes along and picks it apart!

Any more of that talk and you're playing the pink oboe. Otherwise I'm not turning your flute on.

[Pete]

Originally Posted by milner

As for the drum kit i agree why should the Touring Band be treated special and get to take time away from other peoples sets just so they can use their fancy kits?? I have a very good expensive kit but i don't demand that i get to use it every time Point play a gig. Its stupid. Everytime i have used it i have let the other drummers enjoy using a good kit for a change. I hate it at kef when you get made to set up at kit in front of the touring bands kit, it makes the local bands seem insignificant compared to the touring band. Also if he keeps the kit in the condition which he says he does with new heads, tuning and what have you then why complain?? He is going out his way to do that, drakes dont do that although they do have a nice new one. Kef dont even have any cymbol stands and the heads are worn out. So to me it seems your getting a very good deal from the Moorings.

Well quite frankly, the local band is quite insignificant compared to a touring band - you're local, they have a record deal and an agent and managers etc etc - doesn't that put them a couple of notches above you...? Certainly in Kef there's space to do this. Remember, it's not YOUR gig, it's THEIR gig. The chances are the band and/or the promotor are doing you a favour by putting you on at such and such a gig so that you can play to a different audience and vice versa. If you feel you're getting treated as second best when you're SUPPORTING the MAIN ACT then maybe you shouldn't support any touring bands.

Plus, I dunno about you, but I certainly have a VERY specific way I like my kit set up. 99.9% of drum kits can be set up the way I like it but if I was on tour after releasing an album - you know, doing it professionally - I'd sure want to use my kit whenever I had the chance. In fact, I would pretty much insist on it at every gig, whether it was the Moorings or Kef or the Lemon Tree or the Barrowlands. After all, I'm the professional and these are the tools of my trade. You wouldn't expect David Beckham to wear off the rack boots now, would you? At the same time, if it were a Moorings or Drakes gig, where space is obviously very limited, I would easy let the other bands use my kit.

But at the level you and I are at, my friend, we're hardly in the position to throw a strop over having reduced stage space or having to use an inferior kit if it is demnaded of us.




This might be the wrong thread and even forum for this but, pff

[betamax]

From a bands perspective.......

Ive played most of Aberdeens venues plus lots of others that are far more demanding in terms of bigger acoustics, with pushy ego tripping headline acts and tighter schedules. A lot more so than anything in our beloved home town.....so hopefully Im qualified to comment.

Its a fact that the sound quality in the Moorings is consistently very good, onstage and offstage. The good onstage sound really helps with a the bands performance. Most sound guys forget that. The overall sound is always better than the Lemon Tree, usually better than Drummonds and utterly pisses all over Kef. I wont compare it to Drakes as I see Drakes as a different intimate environment all together, where the sound relies on your own backline and not on the PA so much. Drummonds and KEF are afflicted with shitty acoustics so I assume thats why the sound can go from really good to a dull mush or a high frequency fizz all in the same night. And some of the soundmen are considerably better than others adding a consistancy issue. The drums generally dont sound good in Drummonds for some reason (high roof???) and KEF is just a wall of echoing noise.

So whatever Flash and MTA are doing to rule out the various common fuck ups that most bands make, is definately working. Im happy to compromise with a venue and the sound guys if they give me the impression they know their shit, know the venues sound, and they give a fuck about trying to make the gig work. If they do, and you work WITH them, its usually dead good.

The best sounding gig in Scotland I know of, is Bannermans, the room is an arch shaped cavern style thing, and the PA is all thump and grind. The monitors are non existant (broken mostly) but it dosent matter cos the room shape reflects all the sound and you can hear everything anyway. All venues should be arch shaped!!! The sound guys are cool too, take no shit from the bands but do it all very professionally. I saw them really rip into a 'name' band that had two guitarists who were intent on drowning each other out. Fucking hilarious to see pop stars nearly crying.

Generally the sound guys outside Aberdeen have to take less shit from bands than they do here. If you show them that you want to get the gig right, they really go out of their way to help. When bands act like dicks, they sabotage the bands sound Im sure and rightly so. London is brilliant and home to the real hardcore soundmen/women and shittiest broken down PAs which is always fun. Usually you wont even get a soundcheck cos of some big name superstars in the building, which just makes it more fun. Always sounds good anyway.

So yup....., Flashes set of rules are actually a good set of guidlines that are appropriate to his venue and the type of bands he puts on. It works very well. No fucking about. The proof is there if you go along.

Dont forget, all musicians are idiots (me too) who need to be controlled for their own well being!!!

[milner]

Originally Posted by Pete

Well quite frankly, the local band is quite insignificant compared to a touring band - you're local, they have a record deal and an agent and managers etc etc - doesn't that put them a couple of notches above you...? Certainly in Kef there's space to do this. Remember, it's not YOUR gig, it's THEIR gig. The chances are the band and/or the promotor are doing you a favour by putting you on at such and such a gig so that you can play to a different audience and vice versa. If you feel you're getting treated as second best when you're SUPPORTING the MAIN ACT then maybe you shouldn't support any touring bands.

Plus, I dunno about you, but I certainly have a VERY specific way I like my kit set up. 99.9% of drum kits can be set up the way I like it but if I was on tour after releasing an album - you know, doing it professionally - I'd sure want to use my kit whenever I had the chance. In fact, I would pretty much insist on it at every gig, whether it was the Moorings or Kef or the Lemon Tree or the Barrowlands. After all, I'm the professional and these are the tools of my trade. You wouldn't expect David Beckham to wear off the rack boots now, would you? At the same time, if it were a Moorings or Drakes gig, where space is obviously very limited, I would easy let the other bands use my kit.

But at the level you and I are at, my friend, we're hardly in the position to throw a strop over having reduced stage space or having to use an inferior kit if it is demnaded of us.




This might be the wrong thread and even forum for this but, pff

Yeah but the point is they dont let other people use their kits normaly which then makes it shit as far as i can tell. As i said i spent well over £1000 getting myself kitted out and would gladly yet anyother band use it when we play live but they dont. I can understand that yes they are touring and they have a record deal or whatever but they started where we did supporting bands like these but they quickly forget that when it comes to these kinda gigs. I also can understand them not wanting their expepensive kits to get hammered everynight by anyone but to be honest they should just deal with it or use the house kit. Yes i know that people like to use their own kit after all i am a drummer but there is such a thing as a comprimise. Yes i like my kit set up MY way but in these situations you cant always get exactly what you want and these bands seem to expect it.

[soundian]

Originally Posted by betamax

Generally the sound guys outside Aberdeen have to take less shit from bands than they do here. If you show them that you want to get the gig right, they really go out of their way to help. When bands act like dicks, they sabotage the bands sound Im sure and rightly so.

It disturbs me that people could think a sound engineer would deliberately fuck the sound up. They have to listen to it too so I doubt it.

If a band are acting like dicks they generally manage to fuck their own sound up with no outside help.