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[soundian]

Originally Posted by Flash@TMB

Here's my response to the various points that have been raised.

On top of that it takes at least another hour to EQ in an acceptable sound


It's difficult for a drummer to hear the kick drum because it's down on the floor and the sound exits the front of the kick drum which faces away from the drummer. That's why we route the kick drum sound to the drummer through a drum monitor that incorporates a subwoofer.

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The bass from the bass bins easily overpowers the bass from the bass amp. Only the people sited close to the stage front are likely to discern any sound emitting directly from the bass amp. In the event that someone brought along an amp with a unique sound that they believed was essential to their performance then we could use it in place of the house amp provided it had a DI output. This all depends on whether we have amplt time to swap it all around... see below.

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We're happy for someone to drag a 4x12 onto stage as is, and we'll get an OK sound from it. BUT a 1x12 will sound better in absolute terms (non subjective terms). That's just physics. Dual and quad speaker cabs have phasing issues. More importantly the instrument mic should only be pointed at a single speaker. The best results are obtained by turning the output up quite high on that speaker, facilitating less gain on the mic to obtain the desired signal, and therefore less bleed from other sources (since less gain means reduced sensitivity) resulting in a higher signal to noise ratio. This is nothing new. It's no big deal.

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First off, drums. It takes an hour to EQ a kit?????

Kick drum. Drummer hits drum with beater, skin vibrates, air is compressed and rarified by said skin on BOTH sides. Hole at front for mic to go in, not for sound to get out. A lot of modern music tends to rely on a heavy kick sound hence the drummer wants to hear it this way. Add this to the fact that, being a low frequency instrument, it can be hard to pick out when everyone else is rockin out and you're much closer to the reason.

Bass. If it's an unusual sound then it's probably a combination of the amp and cab which produces it, merely DIing will negate the cab factor making all that hassle of changing it worthless. Sling a mic on as well. Especially if there's distortion.

Guitars. Yes, you will get frequency and phase related problems with multiple speakers (wait a minute, your PA has multiple speakers) but how much of that will be evident when one speaker is miked, considering the mic will be considerably further away and extremely off-axis to the other speakers. If your going to worry about that you would be better getting rid of the amp altogether, it might set up some comb filters,when combined with the PA sound, never mind the delay issues.

Sorry, i was goin to keep my big nose out but it was getting silly.

[Flash@TMB]

Originally Posted by GraemeC

I'm not a drummer and have not drum teched for years and I bet I could set a kit up in 30mins and strip it in 10.

I don't doubt it, unfortunately it never works out like that.

Originally Posted by GraemeC

acceptable to who for gods sake? its a pub gig, get over yourself.

EXACTLY GraemeC. It's a pub gig, so what's the big problem with using a house kit?

Originally Posted by GraemeC

so why is that different from any of the other drums? I think you'll find all the drums are manufactured the same and have the same sound characteristics (I'm beginning to see why it takes you an hour to eq the kit)

OK... because the kick drum is down on the floor, and the sound exits it in front of and facing away from the drummer, it can be hard for the drummer to hear the kick drum over the other instruments. That's why we route it's sound through a drum monitor.

Originally Posted by GraemeC

why? in my experience double miking a 4x12 is very effective.

Yes it is, but are you seriously suggesting that I double mic the cabs? What was your point about it being a pub gig again? From one extreme to the other.

Originally Posted by GraemeC

you ain't kidding.....this seems a little double-standardish to me and points again to you having control issues....make the local would be's do what they are told ehhh?

Bands aren't paying me. So if I decided to devote more of my time to a particualr band then that's my choice.

[Ross]

I promote bands in Moshulu. Jimmy does the sound.

Thank Fuck we don't swap jobs.

[Ross]

We never have any problems with our PA...

Although I do occasionally have to run to the shop at the top of the road and buy 2 AA batteries.

If we use rechargables the power drains too quickly thus producing an inferior sound.

[Pete]

What's the size comparison to the Moorings to Drakes? Like I said, I ain't never been in Moorings for a gig but from the one time I have been in there, I don't recall it being any bigger than Drakes. My point? Drakes don't mic up the kit......!*

Also, I'd like to point out, I never EVER have drums put through monitors unless the bass drum is naturally VERY VERY VERY quiet, cos the drums is by far the loudest thing on stage and I have to listen out for the bass and guitar. Or maybe I just kick/hit hard.









*Although aye, the bass drum sometimes has a mic in it.

[Flash@TMB]

Originally Posted by soundian

First off, drums. It takes an hour to EQ a kit?????
Kick drum.

You neglected to mention that if instruments occupy the same frequencies then things like mic bleed become more apparent, say between the bass, the kick drum, and the floor tom. IME incorporating all the various frequencies of a different drum kit whilst avoiding turning the bottom end to mud isn't exactly a trivial job. Unless you don't have a problem with the bottom end being muddy...

Originally Posted by soundian

Drummer hits drum with beater, skin vibrates, air is compressed and rarified by said skin on BOTH sides. Hole at front for mic to go in, not for sound to get out.

NEWSFLASH: when you cut a hole in something sound exits via the hole whether the hole is intended for that purpose or not. The hole is easier to exit than the skin so apply principle of conversion of energy (given the sound energy is finite), and cutting the hole in the kickdrum inadvertantly makes it harder for the drummer to hear the drum. Even a 1mm hole can severaly compromise an otherwise soundproofed partition. Try going out an exit and slowly closing the door, only when the door is fully shut does the volume tail off sharply... WAIT why am I even getting into this pedantic trivial nonsense??? Ian, I concede - let's leave it there.

The rest of your points had already been dealt with.

Originally Posted by soundian

Sorry, i was goin to keep my big nose out but it was getting silly.

Yeah like it got a lot less silly after you interjected. Not. Straight talking... I read your response as a cheap shot at scoring easy points. If I'm wrong in that interpretation then please accept my appologies. It's been a long day.

Unfortunately this is heading at a tangent away from the original intention which was to help me devise a workable template. I am continually editing and refining the original post so that it's easy to focus on the wood as opposed to the trees.

[Flash@TMB]

Originally Posted by Ross

I promote bands in Moshulu. Jimmy does the sound.

Thank Fuck we don't swap jobs.

Tell me about it. Thanks for lightening this up I was starting to lose the plot. LMAO!

[Flash@TMB]

Originally Posted by Pete

What's the size comparison to the Moorings to Drakes? Like I said, I ain't never been in Moorings for a gig but from the one time I have been in there, I don't recall it being any bigger than Drakes. My point? Drakes don't mic up the kit......!*

Also, I'd like to point out, I never EVER have drums put through monitors unless the bass drum is naturally VERY VERY VERY quiet, cos the drums is by far the loudest thing on stage and I have to listen out for the bass and guitar. Or maybe I just kick/hit hard.

I'm not sure what the capcity difference is but I suspect we have around 2-3x the floor area. Our capcity is rated at 150 with the seats in, and 200 with the seats out. Drakes is almost square, the Moorings is long and thin. We use 2 sets of delay speakers in order to transmit the sound to the back of the room.

The PAs delivery is linear, so it's possible to fade in just enough sound to augment the drums and backline without anyone acutally realising that this is the case (to address one of Ian's points it's possible to apply a delays to help make this seamless, but I've never found it to be necessary). This is what we do on Sundays when there's less people in the bar. It just helps balance everything out nicely. With our old JBL right this really wasn't an option because it had to be turned up real loud in order to sound decent... well semi-decent. On Saturdays there's not a ghosters of any of the drums making it to the far end of the room.

Anyway we're still off at a tangent.

[milner]

To be honest guys if says to me it will sound better his way then im going to do it his way after all who are we to argue he's been doing this in HIS place for a long time now so how can you disagree with him???
Fair enough you may have experience in this kind of stuff but not in the Moorings. He does.
As for the drum kit i agree why should the Touring Band be treated special and get to take time away from other peoples sets just so they can use their fancy kits?? I have a very good expensive kit but i don't demand that i get to use it every time Point play a gig. Its stupid. Everytime i have used it i have let the other drummers enjoy using a good kit for a change. I hate it at kef when you get made to set up at kit in front of the touring bands kit, it makes the local bands seem insignificant compared to the touring band. Also if he keeps the kit in the condition which he says he does with new heads, tuning and what have you then why complain?? He is going out his way to do that, drakes dont do that although they do have a nice new one. Kef dont even have any cymbol stands and the heads are worn out. So to me it seems your getting a very good deal from the Moorings.

[Flash@TMB]

The draft has now been updated to incorporate all relevant points. Thanks to everyone that has participated thus far.