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[Ewan U.N.C.L.E.]

haha, if only all guitarists played keyboard instead. The world would be a much less stressful and better souding place (the moorings at least)

1x12's rule

[Chris]

Originally Posted by Flash@TMB

BTW Where has the best accoustics in the world? Don't say Claire's Bar.

I had a job interview there once. They never phoned me back. Bastards.

Frosty obviously wants to tell us where has the best acoustics, or he wouldn't have said the sydney opera house was only the second best.

[GraemeC]

I have roadied/stage managed/tour managed bands for 35 years and have never come across such a piece of nonsense as that list of rules....
To insist that the headline band leave their DW or Mapex kit in the back of the van and use the house kit is simply mad, demanding the use of one kit is fine but to assume that "you're kit" is in some way better than anything someone else brings along is odd to say the least.
As for the bass amp, to claim it is only a stage monitor is nieve in the extreme, if its at a volume that the bass player can hear over the kit them I assure you it will be heard out front also, and if what you claim were true then companies like Eden, Ampeg and Messa Boogie would go out of business pretty quick as bass players reverted to playing through any old shit.
My favourite one is the advise to disconnect three of the speakers in 4x12 cab....I have never heard such shite as this.....my god are you some kind of control freak?

You claim to want the bands gig to be rewarding at The Moorings and the first thing you do is enforce a set of draconian rules designed to piss off the average band member big style...in my experience bands are tough enough to keep happy at the best of times and laying this shit on them is not going to make for their best performance.....I doubt the Nazi party had that many rules.

G...

[Pete]

I must say, I agree with Big G. Fair doos I've only EVER been in the Moorings once and it wasn't during a gig but that's not really the point.

On the drums, takes an hour to erect?! I mean, if it your house kit, surely you know exactly where the 'points' are, don't you?! If you INSIST on using that for EVERY gig then why not just leave it set up all that time?!

On guitar amps, I'd be fucked if I was to spend several hundred pounds on an amp to then let any Tom Dick or Harry to use it, so I can't see that being very popular...

[GraemeC]

Originally Posted by Flash@TMB

We usually manage 4 bands in 2 hours. There's a 15 minute changeover between bands so that typically leaves 15-20 mins to soundcheck each band. The monitors have been causing us problems due to their relatively poor quality, meaning I can't apply as much volume as the bands would like. Last Saturday I hired in some new very high quality ones to try out, and plan to do the same again this weekend with even better ones. Ultimately we'll buy whichever ones work out the best. This will make life much easier for everyone as well as ensuring that we remain broke for another year.



Yes EXACTLY!

But err that's the point of a soundcheck... like to err to CHECK the SOUND. I welcome any criticism of gigs - but soundchecks???

If it sounded perfect at souncheck then all you'd hear during the gig is low frequencies (unless nobody showed up). Part of my job is to compensate for the difference that 150 bodies are going to make to the sound. I guess another option is to order a lorry load of cadavers to simulate this but it's probably easier on the nose to just trust mu judegment

The sound checks last Saturday went even worse (much worse) but the resulting sound during the gig was close to what I was aiming for although I believe I can still improve on it. On Sunday the sound was even better.

Honestly....no disrespect to the moorings, it was my local for many years, but it is just a pub, and sound quality (although important) does not have to be on a par with an opera house.....its great for young bands to get the chance to play through a decent pa and have some monitors they can hear but look at Drakes for instance, in the early days the bands were pretty much left to get on with it "heres the gear, help yourself" and on the whole it worked just fine, a pub gig is about atmosphere, intimacy, sweat, volume, I would never expect hifi sound and am never disappointed when I don't get it.....

Lighten up, you and the bands will benefit.

G...

[GraemeC]

"The kick drum will be put through the drum monitor as it faces away from the drummer"

You may want to think about that one....and explain it to me further.

G...

[Flash@TMB]

Here's my response to the various points that have been raised.

The house kit IS left permanently setup on the stage, and we do start with the same basic EQ, gate, and compression settings for it each time, although these are continually refined, and the gates and compressors are often adjusted to suit a particular drummer. The more we refine it, the less it seems to need tweaked.

It typically takes at least 2 hours to dismantle the house kit, assemble the bands kit, then after the gig dismantle the bands kit and reassemble the house kit. On top of that it takes at least another hour to EQ in an acceptable sound... although the drummer invariably spends a further hour tuning the kit. So this would incurr an additional 4 hours unpaid work for me every week with zero benefit. In the event I agree to undertake this, it should be considered a bonus NOT an entitlement.

Given that we typically have 4 bands playing each gig, then 3 of those bands will be unable to use their own kits anyway, so why not all 4? Why should one drummer receive special treatment?

The house kit is only likely to sound better because we've had the opportunity to refine the EQ settings for that particular kit over a period of months.

It's difficult for a drummer to hear the kick drum because it's down on the floor and the sound exits the front of the kick drum which faces away from the drummer. That's why we route the kick drum sound to the drummer through a drum monitor that incorporates a subwoofer.

***

The bass from the bass bins easily overpowers the bass from the bass amp. Only the people sited close to the stage front are likely to discern any sound emitting directly from the bass amp. In the event that someone brought along an amp with a unique sound that they believed was essential to their performance then we could use it in place of the house amp provided it had a DI output. This all depends on whether we have amplt time to swap it all around... see below.

***

We're happy for someone to drag a 4x12 onto stage as is, and we'll get an OK sound from it. BUT a 1x12 will sound better in absolute terms (non subjective terms). That's just physics. Dual and quad speaker cabs have phasing issues. More importantly the instrument mic should only be pointed at a single speaker. The best results are obtained by turning the output up quite high on that speaker, facilitating less gain on the mic to obtain the desired signal, and therefore less bleed from other sources (since less gain means reduced sensitivity) resulting in a higher signal to noise ratio. This is nothing new. It's no big deal.

***

With 4 bands in 3 hours we're tight on time to switch over the backline. In the event that a bands sound requires certain equipment, then we endeavor to accomodate it, although that may mean reducing the performance time allocated to that band. Bands usually think to contact us in advance to discuss their requirements, and we figure out how to work around everything.

Were the bar ever to host a relatively 'big name' act, then different rules would apply. Having said that the various signed touring bands that we have hosted have been 'low mantenance' and a joy to work with.

***

I didn't mention any issues with Saxophones electric or otherwise.

***

It's amusing that someone would object to letting another musician plug into their amp, yet expect the bar to hand over the controls to a very expensive rig that they haven't been trained to operate!!!

There's no way we are going back to the 'good old days' of pub rock, although those that no longer get paid hundreds of pounds to play in the bar would undoubtedly be in favour of that. Gone are the days of covers bands dragging in huge backlines with vocal rigs, spending all afternoon driving everyone mad setting it up, then charging us £200-£300 quid to play in front of the dozen mates and hangers-on that are left in the bar (who probably saw them the previous night at the bar next door), demanding free drinks, and taking till 5am to pack up their gear. Yeah - I can see why we've managed to piss those people off LOL!!!

[craig deadenstereo]

Originally Posted by Flash@TMB

We're happy for someone to drag a 4x12 onto stage as is, and we'll get an OK sound from it. BUT a 1x12 will sound better in absolute terms (non subjective terms). That's just physics. Dual and quad speaker cabs have phasing issues. More importantly the instrument mic should only be pointed at a single speaker. The best results are obtained by turning the output up quite high on that speaker, facilitating less gain on the mic to obtain the desired signal, and therefore less bleed from other sources (since less gain means reduced sensitivity) resulting in a higher signal to noise ratio. This is nothing new. It's no big deal.

***

The thing about 1x12s is that they are generally open back. 4x12s are closed back, and this does make a big difference to the sound. As for disconnecting speakers in multiple cabs, you're gonna mess around with the wattage it can take, and the impedances - which can lead to fried amps or cones. Plus, with a closed back cab you have to unscrew it and hope it's wired up with spade terminals, else you'd have to get the soldering iron out.
And, as for the phasing issues, the cabs have designers. They are designed to work with their particular drivers to produce a line array effect. Or at least, decent cabs are.

And, amps being a minimum of 100W? I play a 50W valve amp, and it will shred your ears above 3..... Since they're going through the PA anyway, do they really have to be that big (even SS)? 15 or 20W would be alright.

But, this is just generalities. Maybe they guitar rules need re-thought a little.
We're coming up to play in October, and I'll bring up my head and a 1x12 anyway.... 4x12s just don't fit in an Astra with 4 people + gear...

Craig

[GraemeC]

It typically takes at least 2 hours to dismantle the house kit, assemble the bands kit

I'm not a drummer and have not drum teched for years and I bet I could set a kit up in 30mins and strip it in 10.

it takes at least another hour to EQ in an acceptable sound...

acceptable to who for gods sake? its a pub gig, get over yourself.

sound exits the front of the kick drum which faces away from the drummer.

so why is that different from any of the other drums? I think you'll find all the drums are manufactured the same and have the same sound characteristics (I'm beginning to see why it takes you an hour to eq the kit)

More importantly the instrument mic should only be pointed at a single speaker

why? in my experience double miking a 4x12 is very effective.

Were the bar ever to host a relatively 'big name' act, then different rules would apply

you ain't kidding.....this seems a little double-standardish to me and points again to you having control issues....make the local would be's do what they are told ehhh?

There's no way we are going back to the 'good old days' of pub rock, although those that no longer get paid hundreds of pounds to play in the bar would undoubtedly be in favour of that. Gone are the days of covers bands dragging in huge backlines with vocal rigs, spending all afternoon driving everyone mad setting it up, then charging us £200-£300 quid to play in front of the dozen mates and hangers-on that are left in the bar (who probably saw them the previous night at the bar next door), demanding free drinks, and taking till 5am to pack up their gear. Yeah - I can see why we've managed to piss those people off LOL!!!

who suggested that?

G...

[Flash@TMB]

Originally Posted by craig deadenstereo

The thing about 1x12s is that they are generally open back. 4x12s are closed back, and this does make a big difference to the sound.

Agreed that's a valid point.

Originally Posted by craig deadenstereo

As for disconnecting speakers in multiple cabs, you're gonna mess around with the wattage it can take, and the impedances - which can lead to fried amps or cones. Plus, with a closed back cab you have to unscrew it and hope it's wired up with spade terminals, else you'd have to get the soldering iron out.

We wouldn't want anyone to go to that trouble, unless it's designed to have speakers disconnected then it's best left alone. All I was getting at is that if someone has a 1x12 that they're happy to substitute then that's an option worth considering. We're more than happy to work with 4x12s. It's a little scary that people appear to have interpreted the mere suggestion of perhaps a 4x12 aren't the best option as "THE MOORINGS BANS 4x12s" LOL!!! I'll try rewording that section.

Originally Posted by craig deadenstereo

And, as for the phasing issues, the cabs have designers. They are designed to work with their particular drivers to produce a line array effect. Or at least, decent cabs are.

Valid point.

Originally Posted by craig deadenstereo

And, amps being a minimum of 100W? I play a 50W valve amp, and it will shred your ears above 3..... Since they're going through the PA anyway, do they really have to be that big (even SS)? 15 or 20W would be alright.

People have struggled with 10W transistor amps. The figure is only a guideline, I'll reword that section to read "loud enough to hold it's own" or something similar.

Originally Posted by craig deadenstereo

We're coming up to play in October, and I'll bring up my head and a 1x12 anyway.... 4x12s just don't fit in an Astra with 4 people + gear...

We have 1x12 Marshall and Fender Digital FX Combos both rated around 100W, either of those may also suit. You can also slave one of their speakers from your head. I only suggest this to cut down on the amount of gear you have to lug - the choice is yours. Get in touch if you'd like to discuss in more detail prior to the gig.

Thanks for your contribution.