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[Flash@TMB]

We are going to fire up our new format Open Mic Night / Jam Session this Sunday from 7pm onwards.

The Hexagonal Pensioners will act as the new 'house band', they are there to kick the session off, and then fill in the blanks in any bands that turn up missing a player or two.

All bands are welome, but how many tunes they are permitted to play depends on crowd response...

This is early days for the new set-up, and hopefully everyone will help us make this a success.

BTW we are competing head on with the old school at Billy Bundys under the supervision of our 'ex house band'. They reckon that they are 'irreplacable' - let's prove them wrong! Lets demonstrate that people under 35 can participate in this type of event LOL! Let's operate a jam where nobody plays 'Black Night'... EVER...


Flash

[Camie]

Sounds like a brilliant idea

[Lostat]

Should be good fun for sure
http://www.aberdeen-music.com/forums...hreadid=10763#
http://www.aberdeen-music.com/forums...hreadid=10763#

[Flash@TMB]

Most of this weeks session was about sorting out the stage monitors. There were problems with low mid feedback, and a general muddiness. These were related to the configuration of the drum monitor. I think I've finally gotten to the bottom of this one, but it took a while...

By 10pm I'd sussed it out an killed the drum monitor as a temp fix. At that point things started to sound really good. Eliminating the feedback and muddiness enabled me to start EQing the sound properly. We also got a really good stage sound (with the exceptio of the drummer). Next week I'll try out a fix that should eliminate the problem altogether.

Thanks to all the participating musicians for their patience.

For those that have more than a passing interest, here are the boring technicalities in all their dreadful detail:

We have 6x300W powered wedges and a powered sub that run straight off the desk through 6 of the aux channels. One of the wedges daisy chains into the sub to provide a full range stack that acts as the drum monitor. I had assumed that there would be some sort of passive crossover in the sub for this application but if there is it toally sucks!

The purpose of the sub is to deliver the kick drum sound to the drummer. Because the kick drum sound travels away from the drummer, it is impossible for the drummer to hear the kick drum once the rest of the band fire up. We use a sub because it delivers the whooomp feeling to the drummers arse. In a manner of speaking. The sub itself can deliver a range of frequencies from sub base to low mid.

The problem had arisen due to the wedge being daisy chained into the sub. The sub and wedge were effectively acting as one big monitor, and apparently without a decent crossover to separate the frequencies. The meant the sub was delivering some of the low mid from the vocal - something it's not particularily good at reproducing. The result was feedback and a muddy effect through interaction with the vocal mics. It's not possible to EQ out the low mid from the sub without inadvertantly removing it's presence from the wedge also. The effected frequency band is really wide so the monito would sound well dodgy without it.

The solution is to split the sub and the wedge and send separate monitor feeds to them, just pushing a nicely compressed kick drum signal through the sub. I'm confident this will clear up this issue.

The minor downside is that with the sub using it's own aux channel I have to do away with one of the wedges, leaving 'only' 5 wedges, 2 at the front, 2 at the sides, and 1 at the back with the sub. We were previously using 3 at the front. This isn't too big a deal because there is lot's of headroom left on the monitors, the vocal was coming in at -10dB, and with the feedback eliminated we can start to crank the monitor mix a lot higher.


Flash

[soundian]

Originally posted by Flash@TMB:
We have 6x300W powered wedges and a powered sub that run straight off the desk through 6 of the aux channels. One of the wedges daisy chains into the sub to provide a full range stack that acts as the drum monitor. I had assumed that there would be some sort of passive crossover in the sub for this application but if there is it toally sucks!

The purpose of the sub is to deliver the kick drum sound to the drummer. Because the kick drum sound travels away from the drummer, it is impossible for the drummer to hear the kick drum once the rest of the band fire up. We use a sub because it delivers the whooomp feeling to the drummers arse. In a manner of speaking. The sub itself can deliver a range of frequencies from sub base to low mid.

The problem had arisen due to the wedge being daisy chained into the sub. The sub and wedge were effectively acting as one big monitor, and apparently without a decent crossover to separate the frequencies. The meant the sub was delivering some of the low mid from the vocal - something it's not particularily good at reproducing. The result was feedback and a muddy effect through interaction with the vocal mics. It's not possible to EQ out the low mid from the sub without inadvertantly removing it's presence from the wedge also. The effected frequency band is really wide so the monito would sound well dodgy without it.

The solution is to split the sub and the wedge and send separate monitor feeds to them, just pushing a nicely compressed kick drum signal through the sub. I'm confident this will clear up this issue.

The minor downside is that with the sub using it's own aux channel I have to do away with one of the wedges, leaving 'only' 5 wedges, 2 at the front, 2 at the sides, and 1 at the back with the sub. We were previously using 3 at the front. This isn't too big a deal because there is lot's of headroom left on the monitors, the vocal was coming in at -10dB, and with the feedback eliminated we can start to crank the monitor mix a lot higher.


Flash

That's not gonna work, buy a crossover and feed the drum monitor signal through that before sending to your sub and wedge D/F amps.

The reason it won't work is because the kick drum doesn't just produce sub frequencies, there is also the 'click' to take into account. This high end definition of the kick is a very important part of the sound and provides the definition required for the drummer to hear rather than feel the individual beats, especially if there's some double pedal action happening there. The same applies to bass guitar which some drummers rely on as well.

If you're metering off your desk -10dBFS is already ouputting near to max (approx +4 dBu) so you don't have any headroom to play with.

300W seems a bit low for a wedge, I normally use about 600-650W wedges and frequently have to push them to the max




Tip: Try to keep what's in the monitor mixes to the minimum. on such a small stage with monitors coming in from the side as well you'll get a lot of spill on your mikes which affects the FOH sound as well. If only we could train mics to only pick up the sounds we wanted them to life would be so much easier.

[Flash@TMB]

Originally posted by soundian:
That's not gonna work, buy a crossover and feed the drum monitor signal through that before sending to your sub and wedge D/F amps.

The reason it won't work is because the kick drum doesn't just produce sub frequencies, there is also the 'click' to take into account. This high end definition of the kick is a very important part of the sound and provides the definition required for the drummer to hear rather than feel the individual beats, especially if there's some double pedal action happening there. The same applies to bass guitar which some drummers rely on as well.

If you're metering off your desk -10dBFS is already ouputting near to max (approx +4 dBu) so you don't have any headroom to play with.

300W seems a bit low for a wedge, I normally use about 600-650W wedges and frequently have to push them to the max

That's not the meter position of the monitor, it's where I have the monitor faders set.

Power is not a measure of volume. A 600W monitor is only in the order of 10% louder that a 300W monitor... assuming the impedance of both is the same. You need to multiply power by approx 10 in order to double the volume. An easier way to increase volume is by adding speakers. 5 wedges is quite a lot on a stage like ours. That's the equivalent of 5 powerful HiFi's, and stage monitors are very directional compared with HiFi.

I also like to compress the monitor sound as this enables me to drive them harder, and I find we get less issues with feedback that way. I'm not talking full on CD levels of compression, but just enough to keep the vocal in focus.

Also because the weges are powered, I can daisy chain 2 wedges together, and thus reinstate my 6th wedge at the front of the stage. It just means that 2 wedges will be outputing the same mix, quite often the case anyway.

Feedback from AKA The Fox was that it was the best stage sound they'd ever had, and they were playing without the benefit of a bass amp, so the reliance on monitor was higher than usual.

I have a spare crossover and I can try it that way, but alternatively I can send the kick drum signal separatley to both the sub and the wedge, and the use an HPF to eliminate the lower frequencies from the wedge. Also because the beater is on the front of the drum, some click sounds already makes it to the drummer unaugmented.


Flash

[soundian]

Originally posted by Flash@TMB:
That's not the meter position of the monitor, it's where I have the monitor faders set.

^That doesn't mean you're ouputting -10, you could quite easily be outputting 0 dBu, dpends on your gain structure.

Power is not a measure of volume. A 600W monitor is only in the order of 10% louder that a 300W monitor... assuming the impedance of both is the same. You need to multiply power by approx 10 in order to double the volume. An easier way to increase volume is by adding speakers. 5 wedges is quite a lot on a stage like ours. That's the equivalent of 5 powerful HiFi's, and stage monitors are very directional compared with HiFi.

^ I know it's not a linear relationship, I'm basing it on my experience and not calculations. Using 300W (compensated for ohmage when I say this) monitors I often can't get enough volume for louder bands. 600W normally gives me just enough to deal with most things.

I also like to compress the monitor sound as this enables me to drive them harder, and I find we get less issues with feedback that way. I'm not talking full on CD levels of compression, but just enough to keep the vocal in focus.

^In theory compressing the monitor sound will mean an increased gain level for the same onstage volume, meaning feedback should occur at lower percieved volumes. I also try not to compress things in the monitors too much, some people need it free to control their dynamics.

Also because the weges are powered, I can daisy chain 2 wedges together, and thus reinstate my 6th wedge at the front of the stage. It just means that 2 wedges will be outputing the same mix, quite often the case anyway.

Feedback from AKA The Fox was that it was the best stage sound they'd ever had, and they were playing without the benefit of a bass amp, so the reliance on monitor was higher than usual.

^One bands meat is another bands poison.


I have a spare crossover and I can try it that way, but alternatively I can send the kick drum signal separatley to both the sub and the wedge, and the use an HPF to eliminate the lower frequencies from the wedge. Also because the beater is on the front of the drum, some click sounds already makes it to the drummer unaugmented.

^You'd also need a LPF on the sub feed to eliminate the wooly mids in the sub cab if you do it that way. Which is pretty much what a basic two way crossover is: a LPF and a HPF.

Flash

[Flash@TMB]

Originally posted by soundian:
That doesn't mean you're ouputting -10, you could quite easily be outputting 0 dBu, dpends on your gain structure.

The DM1000 enables the level to be adjusted at every stage, post EQ, post compressor, post gate, etc. It also enables EQ, gates, compressors to be inserted at any point in the chain, and in any order. This enables me to tightly control the level of the monitor signal to ensure that it is within tolerance. The other benefit is that these operations are all perfomed in the digital domain and don't add anything unintended to the sound. Now that I'm getting my head round it I'm enjoying this freedom.

Originally posted by soundian:
I know it's not a linear relationship, I'm basing it on my experience and not calculations. Using 300W (compensated for ohmage when I say this) monitors I often can't get enough volume for louder bands. 600W normally gives me just enough to deal with most things.

The Moorings stage is by it's nature a tightly controlled environment. We don't get much in the way of loose sound bouncing around. With the exception of the subwoofer it's extremely hard to generate feedback. A little sound goes a long way up there!

Speaker design and efficiency also comes into the equation. Not all 300W wedges perform the same.

Originally posted by soundian:
In theory compressing the monitor sound will mean an increased gain level for the same onstage volume, meaning feedback should occur at lower percieved volumes. I also try not to compress things in the monitors too much, some people need it free to control their dynamics.

This depends on the nature of the compression.

Because the DM1000 desk enables the level to be adjusted at each point in the chain, compression need not equate to an increase in gain.

The effect out front may be more pronounced than the person on stage realises. I think it's important to give them an onstage sound that correlates to what's happening out front. Squeezing everything a little can help achieve this. Like I said - we aren't talking CD levels of compression, just enough to keep their signals within the audible range on stage.

[MrT]

Well I'm just about to take delivery of my nice shiney new 1200W monitors..........so there!

[Flash@TMB]

Just to put things into perspective we have approx 2400W of monitor through 7 speakers serving between 3 and 6 people in 16m2 of floor space. That's similar to the entire output of our last PA and it served 100 people in over 100m2 of floor space.

Please take into account that this is a lot of juice for someone like me who only has a 2" cock

Seriously.