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[Cloud]

Originally Posted by scottyboy

Pretty sure you have that the wrong way round; perhaps Robert Lowth might have thought it was wrong, but no one here bar you seems to agree.

Most people on here aren't responsible for teaching people English either, are they?

I very much doubt most people on here (without resorting to Google) can tell you when and when not to use because - and given that the rule is so arcane, it's simply better to avoid using it to start a sentence.

If you can use it correctly, great - but when it is taught as a rule in English speaking schools, combined with obscure rules as to when it is actually allowed - I'd argue any day that it's simply easier to avoid using it. Given that there's no central authority for English - if it's being taught in schools as 'wrong' and is being taught in the ESL world as something to avoid using (unless you're teaching CPE!) - isn't it really wrong?

Anyway, I stand by my point - it's exceptionally ugly to start a sentence with because.

[Le Stu]

Promotion FTW!

[scottyboy]

Originally Posted by Cloud

Most people on here aren't responsible for teaching people English either, are they?

I very much doubt most people on here (without resorting to Google) can tell you when and when not to use because - and given that the rule is so arcane, it's simply better to avoid using it to start a sentence.

If you can use it correctly, great - but when it is taught as a rule in English speaking schools, combined with obscure rules as to when it is actually allowed - I'd argue any day that it's simply easier to avoid using it.

Anyway, I stand by my point - it's exceptionally ugly to start a sentence with because.

But there is no such rule: as far as I'm aware grammarians don't agree on whether or not starting a sentence with a conjunction is "wrong". I disagree that it's ugly: it's perfectly natural (see, I did it again with "but" just up there). Same with ending a sentence with a preposition (at least at one point that was an accepted "rule"). I disagree that it's taught as a rule in schools: I don't remember being taught so and as I pointed out, apparently neither does anyone else here. You all but claimed it was a rule then unsuccessfully sidestepped after showing yourself up as incompetent.

[Cloud]

Originally Posted by scottyboy

But there is no such rule: as far as I'm aware grammarians don't agree on whether or not starting a sentence with a conjunction is "wrong".

Do English grammarians agree on anything? Even books that some teachers regard as being authoritative (Murphy being a great example) are simply written to suit the language.

I disagree that it's ugly: it's perfectly natural (see, I did it again with "but" just up there").

So much of English is natural but wrong though - look at the way that Scots will use phrases like 'my hair needs washed' or 'the cat wants out' - both of those are absolutely natural to my ears too, but they're wrong.

Anyway, even if it's natural, it would be punished by Cambridge examiners. And given that Cambridge exams are the closest thing that English has to a standardised test that's widely accepted - then they do have considerable influence, even if you or I don't agree.

I disagree that it's taught as a rule in schools: I don't remember being taught so and as I pointed out, apparently neither does anyone else here.

Probably because most of them are arguing for the sake of argument. It certainly was taught in my primary and secondary schools, and even in different countries. Or maybe they simply had bad teachers that accepted the use of 'because' to start a sentence.

You all but claimed it was a rule then unsuccessfully sidestepped after showing yourself up as incompetent.

It's as good a rule as you'll get in English grammar - bearing in mind that even accepted authorities disagree on English (oh, the joy of having to explain to someone why Oxford and Cambridge dictionaries aren't exactly the same).

Anyway, bearing in mind the widespread use of 'because' to start a sentence by people that can easily be called chavs, would you or anyone else educated really want to use it?

Do you really teach people to start sentences with because?

[scottyboy]

Originally Posted by Cloud

Do English grammarians agree on anything? Even books that some teachers regard as being authoritative (Murphy being a great example) are simply written to suit the language.

So much of English is natural but wrong though - look at the way that Scots will use phrases like 'my hair needs washed' or 'the cat wants out' - both of those are absolutely natural to my ears too, but they're wrong.

Anyway, even if it's natural, it would be punished by Cambridge examiners. And given that Cambridge exams are the closest thing that English has to a standardised test that's widely accepted - then they do have considerable influence, even if you or I don't agree.

Probably because most of them are arguing for the sake of argument. It certainly was taught in my primary and secondary schools, and even in different countries. Or maybe they simply had bad teachers that accepted the use of 'because' to start a sentence.

It's as good a rule as you'll get in English grammar - bearing in mind that even accepted authorities disagree on English (oh, the joy of having to explain to someone why Oxford and Cambridge dictionaries aren't exactly the same).

Anyway, bearing in mind the widespread use of 'because' to start a sentence by people that can easily be called chavs, would you or anyone else educated really want to use it?

Do you really teach people to start sentences with because?

A couple of regional idioms aren't the same as the use of a basic part of speech. Neither does pointing to whole books which don't agree in part. Again, show me the consensus one cannot start a sentence with "because"? Show me this "rule"? A few posts ago you were claiming it was not a rule (deriding "grammar freaks and bearded Cambridge/Oxford workers"), merely that it was unnatural or "ugly". Then you claimed its use was guided by "arcane" rules and its use was dependent on context or further "obscure rules". Now you claim it is a rule. There is no such rule.

You are also wrong about Cambridge ESOL exams having some sort of monopoly on ESL testing.

[scottyboy]

P.S. Cloud, you started a sentence with a conjunction in your last post. Twice.

[Cloud]

Originally Posted by scottyboy

P.S. Cloud, you started a sentence with a conjunction in your last post. Twice.

I know I did...

[scottyboy]

Originally Posted by Cloud

I know I did...

Sure you do. FYI, the "rule" you speak of refers to conjunctions, not "because" specifically.

[Pint_paul]

Originally Posted by Cloud

Do English grammarians agree on anything? Even books that some teachers regard as being authoritative (Murphy being a great example) are simply written to suit the language.



So much of English is natural but wrong though - look at the way that Scots will use phrases like 'my hair needs washed' or 'the cat wants out' - both of those are absolutely natural to my ears too, but they're wrong.

Anyway, even if it's natural, it would be punished by Cambridge examiners. And given that Cambridge exams are the closest thing that English has to a standardised test that's widely accepted - then they do have considerable influence, even if you or I don't agree.



Probably because most of them are arguing for the sake of argument. It certainly was taught in my primary and secondary schools, and even in different countries. Or maybe they simply had bad teachers that accepted the use of 'because' to start a sentence.



It's as good a rule as you'll get in English grammar - bearing in mind that even accepted authorities disagree on English (oh, the joy of having to explain to someone why Oxford and Cambridge dictionaries aren't exactly the same).

Anyway, bearing in mind the widespread use of 'because' to start a sentence by people that can easily be called chavs, would you or anyone else educated really want to use it?

Do you really teach people to start sentences with because?

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