»

[Stichman]

I think it's probably pretty easy to box in all Christians/Creationists on the evidence of a few stupid nutters who slap videos on to youtube. My dad is into Intelligent Design, which is generally and - in my opinion - somewhat lazily called 'creationism in all but name'. He's not a psychopath and he's an intelligent chap.

I study Earth Science at Uni and I find it interesting and pretty full-proof on the whole. I firmly believe the world is a lot older than a few thousand years, that much is pretty close to undeniable fact. But, there are certainly gaping holes in the logic of evolution. Personally, I don't think anyone has got it figured out and I'm pretty sure nobody ever will.

[Stripey]

Originally Posted by Stichman

I think it's probably pretty easy to box in all Christians/Creationists on the evidence of a few stupid nutters who slap videos on to youtube. My dad is into Intelligent Design, which is generally and - in my opinion - somewhat lazily called 'creationism in all but name'. He's not a psychopath and he's an intelligent chap.

Intelligent design *is* creationism, it's a mendacious, pseudoscientific excuse to teach creationism in schools that is peddled by religious bigots. Your dad and anyone else can believe what they like, but religious people have no business trying to impose their moral and ethical views on politics, law, education, medicine or science.

[nullmouse]

Originally Posted by Stichman

I think it's probably pretty easy to box in all Christians/Creationists on the evidence of a few stupid nutters who slap videos on to youtube. My dad is into Intelligent Design, which is generally and - in my opinion - somewhat lazily called 'creationism in all but name'. He's not a psychopath and he's an intelligent chap.
.

Stripey's on the money, there's no lazy comparison going on - Intelligent Design is Creationism and likewise only accepts one "Intelligent Designer", and that's the Christian God. It's scientifically vacuous. ID deliberately misrepresents evolution in order to drive a wedge of doubt in to an established theory, but offers nothing of any credence in return.

If you have the time, I'd recommend searching out the full decision in the Kitzmiller Vs Dover Area School District trial from 2005, it's a fun read (Full text linked from bottom of Wikipedia entry - Kitzmiller v. Dover Area School District - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia)

[lepeep]

Bringing up the new scientist again,
I read a fantastic article on the propultion system (flagellum) of bacteria.
Creation..*cough* Intelligent Design fans cite the flagellum as a case study for an impossible structure to happen by chance - so it must have been "designed"...

"The best studied flagellum, of the E. coli bacterium, contains around 40 different kinds of proteins. Only 23 of these proteins, however, are common to all the other bacterial flagella studied so far. Either a "designer" created thousands of variants on the flagellum or, contrary to creationist claims, it is possible to make considerable changes to the machinery without mucking it up."

but, again, trying to explain science to an ID "believer" Is kind of pointless.

I like it when religious folks say that because science is never "finished" (the quest for knowledge, peer reviews, dissagreement and re-writing / editing findings because of new discoveries) "invalidates" it as "truth"....

unlike the bible - as it's not changed in 2000 years.....(well, apart fromt he mormon version, eventists version, baptists version, catholic version, protestant version, reformation version, orthodox version....)

you kind of get the point.

not to mention that christianity is only one of many religions - and "science" is science...

[SteveCrisis]

Originally Posted by Stichman

I think it's probably pretty easy to box in all Christians/Creationists on the evidence of a few stupid nutters who slap videos on to youtube. My dad is into Intelligent Design, which is generally and - in my opinion - somewhat lazily called 'creationism in all but name'. He's not a psychopath and he's an intelligent chap.

I study Earth Science at Uni and I find it interesting and pretty full-proof on the whole. I firmly believe the world is a lot older than a few thousand years, that much is pretty close to undeniable fact. But, there are certainly gaping holes in the logic of evolution. Personally, I don't think anyone has got it figured out and I'm pretty sure nobody ever will.

Originally Posted by Stripey

Intelligent design *is* creationism, it's a mendacious, pseudoscientific excuse to teach creationism in schools that is peddled by religious bigots. Your dad and anyone else can believe what they like, but religious people have no business trying to impose their moral and ethical views on politics, law, education, medicine or science.

Thank you Stripey

Here's what Brookmyre thinks:

www.brookmyre.co.uk :: The Future by Christopher Brookmyre

[lepeep]

Originally Posted by Stichman

I study Earth Science at Uni and I find it interesting and pretty full-proof on the whole.

what is "earth science"? and why is it so "full of proof"? - or if you meant "fool proof", ... proof of what? (in an ID / evolution agrument context)

(Earth science - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia)

[Hugh_Jazz]

Originally Posted by lepeep

what is "earth science"? and why is it so "full of proof"? - or if you meant "fool proof", ... proof of what? (in an ID / evolution agrument context)

(Earth science - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia)

Earth science is geology by another name, and I assume what he's saying is that the evidence for the Earth being 4.6bn years old is overwhelming and conclusive.

Just want to point out that the age of the earth is 4.6bn years old.....this is not the same time that life is estimated to have first begun as has been suggested elsewhere. The earliest fossils are about 3.5bn years old. It took 1bn years(ish) for the earth to cool sufficiently for life to start.

[Shaki]

Originally Posted by Stichman

I don't think anyone has got it figured out and I'm pretty sure nobody ever will.

I'm happy living with that. Of course you should always respect other people's beliefs (I've never understood why, you just should.....)

secretly I'm a creationist but am afraid to speak the obvious truth for fear of persecution, ridicule and losing my job. If anyone's with me send me a PM and we can meet up to discuss our strategy for world domination.

[lepeep]

Originally Posted by Hugh_Jazz

Just want to point out that the age of the earth is 4.6bn years old.....this is not the same time that life is estimated to have first begun as has been suggested elsewhere.

guilty...
that's what you get for cutting and pasting quickly...ho ho
ach, what's a billion years between friends?

-----
just a quick note too, creationists also say "you can't prove evolution happens" (due to the rediculous timescales to show it does or doesn't happen)...

so - MRSA - evolution sped up? (or is god having a tinker with his "perfect" world whilst we sleep?)

[Stripey]

Originally Posted by SteveCrisis

Here's what Brookmyre thinks:

www.brookmyre.co.uk :: The Future by Christopher Brookmyre

Well put.

this is a nicely explained piece : YouTube - disproving intelligent design with a mouse trap

YouTube - Robin Ince on Creationism