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[Snakebite]

The European Union is proposing to implement an Intellectual Property Law.

See link below

http://uk.news.yahoo.com/050801/152/fon1a.html

This has great implications on the use of Open Source as any intentional infringement of intellectual Property by a company or individual could result in criminal proceedings being filed against them.

This means that SCO Unix for instance could sue anyone using linux applications if it is based around unix owned intellectual property which could result in a criminal conviction.

Example: SCO Unix sued Daimler Chrysler for using their Autozone application on Linux, see above link.

This in turn would mean that before a company or individual creates/publishes an open source application they would need to check whether someone else didnt already own the intellectual property for the idea.

Would it mean the end for Free Open Source Software in Europe?

What are peoples thoughts on this?

[spellchecker]

http://groklaw.net/

[spellchecker]

p.s. are you scared of open source or something, really, it's not a big deal, try it, you might like it, it never did anyone any harm, well except microsoft, sun, HP and a few other big old mainframe codgers, but IBM got with the plan and tried to look for the positives, hey, maybe you should do the same, you know, a lot of people are now using open source legitimately as opposed to closed source illegitamately, surely you would see that as a good thing, and considering the foundation of some of the first internet protocols were some of the first open source style projects, surely it can't be a bad thing.

OPEN SOURCE NEVER KILLED ANYONE

[Snakebite]

Originally Posted by spellchecker

p.s. are you scared of open source or something, really, it's not a big deal, try it, you might like it, it never did anyone any harm, well except microsoft, sun, HP and a few other big old mainframe codgers, but IBM got with the plan and tried to look for the positives, hey, maybe you should do the same, you know, a lot of people are now using open source legitimately as opposed to closed source illegitamately, surely you would see that as a good thing, and considering the foundation of some of the first internet protocols were some of the first open source style projects, surely it can't be a bad thing.

OPEN SOURCE NEVER KILLED ANYONE

It hasnt stopped SCO Unix from sueing people that use Linux. And demanding people pay $699 to allow them to legally continue to use linux on a PC.

If the EU apply this intellectual Property law SCO Unix would have a field day against all Linux users since they believe they can be more effective if they target the user.

And if SCO Unix can do it then many more companies will sue and seek criminal proceedings against any users/owners of an open source application that intentionally infringes their intellectual property.

IBM are now trying to arrange legal protection for users of their open source software since if they dont SCO unix will be able to sue their user base. This will incur large legal bills to IBM which may end up being passed down to the user anyway.

Some other companies have already given in to SCO Unix and actually paid their demand of $699.

Open Source should be free to be developed and is ideal for development of the third world, but this law will mean that open source applications that mimic other applications which use intellectual Property could be a target if you live in europe.

This in turn would lead to money having to be spent by the user to pay for legal protection if they use open source therefore effectively meaning an end to free software since they will have to pay for the legal right to use it.

Just want to highlight the facts for a decent discussion on this topic.

The EU should be petitioned by as many people as possible in an attempt to stop this law being passed.

[Frosty Jack]

What is wrong with you?

[Snakebite]

Originally Posted by Frosty Jack

What is wrong with you?

Eh?

Am only bringing this issue up because it will affect a lot of people that use open source if this becomes law. Many of which appear use this Forum as you've all discussed how you all prefer to use open source applications enough in other threads.

I'm not pointing at any particular open source application. This issue applies to all open source. It will limit it's development and use in europe since application developers and users of open source will have to ensure they are not infringing on existing Intellectual Property before they publish.

It will to some extent affect some non open source applications as well. However they do seem to be more aware of what is intellectual property and the implications of infringing it than open source developers. Take linux as a prime example, it infringes on several pieces of SCO Unix intellectual property but open source developers/users are just ignoring it until they are sued. i.e. Daimler Chrysler for instance.

Say like for instance Tabbed browsing, Opera had the idea first before Firefox & Internet Explorer so in theory they could say they own the intellectual property for the idea. The owners of Opera could then in turn sue/prosecute Mozilla, Microsoft and any users of the software in europe if they wanted to if this law was passed.

The financial implications of this law are huge.

[spellchecker]

Originally Posted by Snakebite

Take linux as a prime example, it infringes on several pieces of SCO Unix intellectual property but open source developers/users are just ignoring it until they are sued. i.e. Daimler Chrysler for instance.

This is at best, not proven, and at worst (and most plausibly) complete lies.

see the groklaw link above for background reading on the SCO vs IBM case. then you'll realise how laughable SCO's "case" actually is.

Originally Posted by Snakebite

Say like for instance Tabbed browsing, Opera had the idea first before Firefox & Internet Explorer so in theory they could say they own the intellectual property for the idea. The owners of Opera could then in turn sue/prosecute Mozilla, Microsoft and any users of the software in europe if they wanted to if this law was passed.

The financial implications of this law are huge.

I assume you are talking about the proposed european software patent legislation, which the EU parliament voted to scrap a few weeks ago:

http://www.theregister.co.uk/2005/07/06/eu_bins_swpat

i don't know where you got the idea that "all" (or even 'many') users of the forum are using open source software... i could probably count on 2 of my 3 hands the number of open source operating system users on this forum. although a fair share probably use firefox or mozilla now, they do so because it just bloody works(tm) and not because it's open source.

[Snakebite]

Originally Posted by spellchecker

This is at best, not proven, and at worst (and most plausibly) complete lies.

see the groklaw link above for background reading on the SCO vs IBM case. then you'll realise how laughable SCO's "case" actually is.



I assume you are talking about the proposed european software patent legislation, which the EU parliament voted to scrap a few weeks ago:

http://www.theregister.co.uk/2005/07/06/eu_bins_swpat

i don't know where you got the idea that "all" (or even 'many') users of the forum are using open source software... i could probably count on 2 of my 3 hands the number of open source operating system users on this forum. although a fair share probably use firefox or mozilla now, they do so because it just bloody works(tm) and not because it's open source.

The Intellectual Property law that is being proposed has nothing to do with the Patent Directive

I'm not talking about who uses open source and who doesnt. This new law will affect both non-open source & open source since it deals with ideas rather than patents. If an idea has been used already then the company or person that came up with and published that idea will own the intellectual property for it. Therefore if say you write application that somehow mimics the operation of existing published ideas then you could be sued/prosecuted under this new law for reusing the idea without the consent of the company or person that first published it.

If this law is passed then companies like SCO unix will be able make a lot of money from sueing/prosecuting people that have copied their ideas in other applications whether open source or not.

However ideas tend to be copied more often in open source since most people that write open source applications in the past believe that reusing someone elses idea in their own applications is just a part of using open source because it's free. When in reality they will actually be breaking the law if this IP law is passed.


Read the link on my first post

[spellchecker]

Originally Posted by Snakebite

The Intellectual Property law that is being proposed has nothing to do with the Patent Directive

I'm not talking about who uses open source and who doesnt. This new law will affect both non-open source & open source since it deals with ideas rather than patents. If an idea has been used already then the company or person that came up with and published that idea will own the intellectual property for it. Therefore if say you write application that somehow mimics the operation of existing published ideas then you could be sued/prosecuted under this new law for reusing the idea without the consent of the company or person that first published it.

If this law is passed then companies like SCO unix will be able make a lot of money from sueing/prosecuting people that have copied their ideas in other applications whether open source or not.

However ideas tend to be copied more often in open source since most people that write open source applications in the past believe that reusing someone elses idea in their own applications is just a part of using open source because it's free. When in reality they will actually be breaking the law if this IP law is passed.


Read the link on my first post

hmmm, my bad. it's sad that they went to the trouble of scrapping the software patent bill and came up with something even worse - now you don't even need a patent, just say you did it first! i assume the law relies on some "prior art" evidence like patent appeals have.

couple of other points though...

Originally Posted by Snakebite

since most people that write open source applications in the past believe that reusing someone elses idea in their own applications is just a part of using open source because it's free.

most people that write open source applications TRY to share code because it's a fundamental premise of modern software engineering, re-use existing components where possible, don't reinvent the wheel, etc. etc.

the bill you mentioned above, if passed, would take things to a new level, but it's worth noting a couple of points about SCO - they are pretty much an exception to the rule. for one thing, their case against Daimler was dismissed (http://www.internetnews.com/bus-news...e.php/3384551). another thing, SCO trying to sue companies for using code they say infringes SCO's IP is pretty much tantamount to extortion, because they have no legal testimony that what they say is true. If they somehow won their case against IBM, then it would be different.

[Snakebite]

Originally Posted by spellchecker

most people that write open source applications TRY to share code because it's a fundamental premise of modern software engineering, re-use existing components where possible, don't reinvent the wheel, etc. etc.

That only works if the code or idea they are sharing hasnt already been used elsewhere by another company/individual who claims they own the intellectual property to it. Who may or may not use open source.

Thats where this new law is dangerous since if several people share code that hasnt been written by them they could all find themselves liable for prosecution by the company/individual that did write the code if they so desire to pursue it.